Question:
Very nice Selmer on eBay; is it original?
Exquisite 5 Digit Selmer Mark VI Tenor Saxophone
Item number: 7413471176
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Hello,
Anyone who cruises eBay looking at Selmers sorted by highest first
would have noticed this listing and probably thought, "That's the
nicest, original Selmer Mark VI I'm ever going to see, period." And
that's what I thought, until I looked at it again tonight. Then I
started looking at with a more critical eye and wondered "What if ..."
My thoughts:
1. First of all, the paragraph describing the condition of the horn:
"This classic is 100% guaranteed original. Every cork, spring,
booster, felt, LACQUER, receiver plug, & even the matching serial
numbered neck is as it was when it came off of Selmer's assembly
line in 1955. It plays great in it's original/current state & needs
absolutely nothing. The serial number falls between 59001 & 63400
indicating a 1955 produced horn."
In a weird sort of way, you could interpret the way the horn has been
described as being the same description you could give a horn that had
been totally overhauled back to it's condition "as it was when it came
off of Selmer's assembly line in 1955." The more I've read and re-read
the description the easier it is for me to imagine the conversation one
would have after receiving a refurbished horn that had been passed off as
original, with the seller saying, 'I restored it so that "every cork,
spring, booster, felt, LACQUER, receiver plug, & even the matching serial
numbered neck is as it was when it came off of Selmer's assembly
line in 1955."'
2. See the pictures showing the tenon of the neck, doesn't it look like
that neck has been on the horn enough to show some wear?
3. Notice the wear on the case: Several photos showing areas on the case
with stitching that's wearing through. And in one photo it looks like
a leather strap on the inside of the case is snapped in half, indicative
of a case from a horn that may have seen enough use to have at least a
scratch somewhere.
4. I'm don't know enough about Selmers, but would an original horn of
this vintage have metal or plastic resonators? They look like plastic in
the photos.
5. What about the engraving? It appears there's a few areas where it
could be a little bit light, particularly the middle petal/leaf closest
to the bell opening on the right side of the horn. See how it appears the
engraving is a little weak? Especially the outer zig-zag pattern which forms
the border of the design. However, on another shot, from a different angle,
the horn looks like the engraving of the same area is stronger.
I bought a Super 20 recently on eBay that had the best relacquer you'd ever
seen. The tech I work with here in Seattle said he'd never seen anything
better, and postulated that it must have been done at the King factory.
The only thing that gave it away was the engraving on the bell had been
buffed, and I had another horn to compare it to so I knew what it should look
like. I think it's possible this horn was relacquered and the seller doesn't
know it, especially since all the felts, corks, and pads are all in great shape,
too.
And speaking of engraving, were Selmers of this vintage engraved after being
lacquered? Because in some photos it looks like that horn has lacquer over
the engraving.
6. And what about the color of the lacquer? It's hard to tell what color something
actually is from digital photos, and on a computer screen, but shouldn't a horn of
that vintage be a little more copper colored?
7. And that neck cork? The seller "clearly" state everything is original, but that
neck cork doesn't even look like it's aged at all, or that it's ever had a mouthpiece
on it. Again, it may have been replaced during a factory refurbishing, or the seller
may have neglected to mention the neck cork is not original. Check the condition of
the cork on the octave key mechanism, however, it's broken and there's a piece missing,
plus it looks more aged than the neck cork.
8. And one of the side key rods appears to be bent, although it could just be an illusion
in the photo.
9. For some reason the seller refuses to show a picture of the serial number, and also
will only narrow it down to a range of more than 4000 horns. I even wrote him privately
and he sent back the same vague information with no explanation as to why. Could it
be the serial number has been buffed a little bit and that's the reason for the all the
secrecy regarding the serial number?
10. If someone was trying to pull a fast one, and note that I said "if," then overpricing
an instrument to begin with, then soliciting private offers for a deal outside of eBay's
jurisdiction would be the way to go. But this seller has great feedback, so that doesn't
seem to make sense.
After the relacquer I bought, I've learned that anything is possible.

Answer:

This one has been offered before for 20K not its 20K minus $5. Its a relac horn, non original pads (they had metal resos in 1955) and the neck cork hasn't even seen a mpc
Very well done horn thou
Dave

Answer:
$20,000.00 ??? Give me a break.
I mean..Yeah..It's a nice horn but I'll lay 10 to 1 that if you flew to New York,
tried out several new 54's, you would find one that plays as well ..
(or even better)..and save yourself 14 grand.
Geez...I've got a Selmer IV that's made right along that same time, plays
sensational, looks great and if someone came up to me with $10,000.00 it
would be in their hands faster than the Superman Proverbial Bullet!
These kind of Ads just **** me off. :)

Answer:
Geeze, what does it cost to list something for 20 grand?

Answer:
Originally Posted by Grumps Geeze, what does it cost to list something for 20 grand? When you'll figure out then multiply it by 3 cause this thing has been listed at least 3 times...

Answer:
Perhaps he has a friend in China that lists it for him for 1 cent
Dave

Answer:
Originally Posted by BlueTone $20,000.00 ??? Give me a break.
I mean..Yeah..It's a nice horn but I'll lay 10 to 1 that if you flew to New York,
tried out several new 54's, you would find one that plays as well ..
(or even better)..and save yourself 14 grand.
Except that 54s are not the same horn, the action is not as good. Might sound OK, but what's the point if you want that great MKVI action that a ref 54 can't deliver as the springs are too short?

Answer:
One more thing... it's expensive to fly to New York

Answer:
Is it original? The way ebay is going is it real?

Answer:
I think it's real. Possibly it was freshened up with new pads and cork unbenounced to the seller, but the horn itself looks original to me.

Answer:
I don't think the color is right. My 82xxx is alot darker.I would like to see a 5 digit mark VI sell for 20 grand it would make all mark VI's value go up.Old fender strats sell for 20 to 40 grand all the time,and there no were near as good as a Mark VI.

Answer:
Originally Posted by jimmitch I don't think the color is right. My 82xxx is alot darker.
Is the color of aged lacquer dependent on how much exposure it has had to light and smoke (and other)?

Answer:
Well, given his previous sales that are easily accessed through feedback. I'd steer clear. A bunch of cases, one of which is mislabled as a Mark VI case.
The other major red flag is the he sold to some poor sap. I've never seen any vintage Conn without the 'merc' low C key guard, save those that were damaged and replaced with a Buescher style key guard...
Caveat emptor ;)

Answer:
oh...what a discounted price~~~~ 5USD!!!

Answer:
Clearly a nice VI (a $5,000 sax even as a Relac), but there are some red flags to question it's MINT and ORIGINAL status:
1) the neck cork is clearly new, as are the pads (1955 Selmers had stainless steel resos,)
2) the lacquer color is a smidge light, the low Eb top edge appears a little rounded (worn off),
3) the top of the sax (receiver area) has a deep dotted ring that comes from Paris before the sax is assembled and lacquered. I have seen some Original lac horns with slight buffing to this area, as well as the Selmer Logo by the engraving (which is also stamped in Paris before sent to the US.)
The American assembly & engraving people may have given the sax a light buff to remove any oxidation before applying the lacquer (to guarentee good adhesion), BUT - the deep dotted line look extremely faint on this sax.
So I see a whole lot of hints, but no smoking gun to guarentee the relac status.
I also e-mailed him for the exact serial number, as I track Selmer and Super 20 serial numbers, and if he bought it on e-bay as a relac, I MAY have a record of it. (he refused to give it out.)
I have also e-mailed him for a picture of the top of the sax, and if I get a good close up, and it was heavily buffed, this MAY solve it.
If anyone decides to buck up for this horn, I would buy it through e-bay's e-escrow only, then have two sax experts evaluate it closely.
As far as the price is concerned, $20K is high today. (but 10 years ago $8k was way too HIGH for a mint VI. Now I see 80-90% ORIGINAL lac 5 digit VI's going for 8K, and ... on the rare occassion a MINT 5 digit VI with nice original case comes up, they often go $9k - $12k, depending on the reputation of the Seller. So ya, he is high, but maybe someone strikes a deal with him for $10 - $15k, subject to review by an expert, and then some final re-negotiating may be then done if there is hidden damage or it's a re-lac, and your done.:line4: :line3: :)

Answer:
PS ... Robert Allen sent me this thread, who has traded several really nice and 100% Original horns with me.
I created a new user Name Doug B, but I just remembered I had already logged in as Reubin, my e-bay handle, so I guess I am back. :drunken: Doug B aka Reubin.

Answer:
Originally Posted by Pete Thomas One more thing... it's expensive to fly to New York
I forgot that the horn is in the U.K.
I'm not convinced that Mark VI's are worth that much.
I've played both and "speed Notes" come out and play easy on both horns.
I'm not saying that you are wrong...just that I don't believe the differance is
worth....what? 14 thousand?

Answer:
Jmac, that conn stencil, continental colonial, is a conn made sax but modeled on the chu type keywork and pan am body not the 10m as he stated,
Dave