Question:
Yamaha vs. Selmer Sound --I Can't Try Before I Buy
Hi,
I live in San Diego and have found that none of the area music stores have ANY Yamaha Custom or Selmer Series III Sopranos for me to try ... I must special order. I would probably just order the Custom but am afraid it might sound like the horn Dave Koz plays. I really like his playing in all other respects, but I do not like the sound of his Soprano set up. Perhaps someone can give me some insight into how to pick a horn without being able to play it:
1) What is the origin of the Koz Soprano sound? Do all Customs sound like this?
2) Would a black lacquer finish modify the sound of either of these horns? What would be the effect? (Does this involve an extra coat of lacquer?)
3) Does anyone know of a shop in the LA area that would carry these horns so I could play them first? I'd be willing to drive up there to buy.
4) Finally, I was able to try a Cannonball at a local shop and liked the basic sound, but the horn was sooooooo out of tune on different notes I thought my tuner was going to melt (i.e. Bb1 40cents sharp, G#1 30 cents flat, etc.) Should this make of horn have been better than that? Was it possibly improperly set up or out of adjustment? The sound, heavier weight, and tighter action seemed much better than what I am used to now (old LA Sax), except for the intonation. Assuming this one horn was a clunker, are the Custom and the Series III really as much better than the Cannonball as the price implies? My goal is to play in a band someday about once or twice a week.
Please feel free to answer any of part of my post, and thanks in advance for your help.
John

Answer:
Either the Selmer or Yamaha would be great horns. Unlike their larger tenor brothers, these two sound more similar than you might think. My first word of advice is, if at all possible, travel to wherever you can try them side by side. I know that is not an option for some people.
I'm not sure what sound of Koz's you mean, but I'm thinking it might be the usual somewhat "snake charmer" like sound. That's what most folks object to. I've just purchased a curved soprano and, although not a major brand, I like it's sound better than the Yamaha 62 I used to own.
If it's a warmer, rounder sound you are after, I'd suggest you try a Yanagisawa curved model, especially the bronze SC-902. Several guys on this forum swear by them, and that's what I plan to buy later in the year.
Finally, mouthpiece and reed combinations can do wonders for both tone and intonation. Guys on here have recommended both the Selmer Super Sessions, and the HR Bari models. I have a Bari on the way from WWBW, and I have high expectations. My horn came with a Selmer S-80, and it's not a bad piece, just a little closed (C*).
Good luck in your search.

Answer:
On your other points, I haven't tried a CB soprano, although I did try an alto that I didn't like at all. Other people think they're the best thing since sliced bread. You shouldn't have to settle for a horn with poor intonation.
As far as the black lacquer goes, I had an 875B tenor, and there might have been some small change in the tone over the clear lacquer models. Yes, it does involve a second layer of lacquer. Some interpret the sonic difference as a darker sound, while others call it dull. It's a very subjective thing.

Answer:
Koz doesn't use a Yamaha soprano...he uses a vintage conn curved soprano if my memory serves me correctly.

Answer:
I have serviced quite a few new Selmers as they enter my country.
Then I try them, and every time I think, what an awesome instrument to play.
Sometimes I then get out my Yanagisawa 880 (about 8 years old) to compare,, and I think that this is just as awesome. To play, there is very litttle difference, as Morry says.
The Yanagisawa is considerably easier to work on. The Selmer has keys disorganized and tangled together like a wire puzzle, so that you cannot take them off one at a time. To access the G# key means taking off about a dozen other keys, many of them in clusters.

Answer:
Notorious: In LA, call Baxter-Northrup in Sherman Oaks (Ventura Bl.), Zep's in Burbank, The Horn Connection (I think they may be in Hollywood somewhere), and two Sam Ash stores (Hollywood and Canoga Park) to see if they may have in stock what you are loooking for. If they all have something of interest, a drive up to LA may be worth your time. Even then, you will be playing probably only one example of a maker's models. The more examples you play, the more you will realize that they are all different, even among the same make/model.
I know Baxter-Northrup has had both Yamaha Customs and new Selmers in stock at one time or another. Zep's will usually have a Serie III in stock.
I know the problem . . . I had to test horns all across the country because not one store had everything I wanted to try. And still I ended up ordering sight-unseen. WW&BW will send you instruments on trial for a small re-stocking fee (as I recall).
I am not familiar with Dave Koz's sound (I don't care for most modern players), but I would bet that it isn't his horn that gives him his sound, nor will the same type of horn give everyone who plays it that sound. I play vintage and new sops, curved and straight, and I've heard modernists play the same horns to a totally different effect. I can make most sopranos sound "old" regardless of the horn's manufacturer or design.
My advice would be to try as many as you can and don't concern yourself with which famous player uses which make of horn. Be yourself and buy what YOU like.
Between the Serie III and the Yamaha Custom, I'd chose the Selmer (based on tone), assuming you had access to a good tech to fix the Selmer factory's errors (that's what I did, and that's what others have reported). But, I also second Gordon's comments about Yanagisawa - I now have three Yana sops and no Serie III. Good luck. DAVE

Answer:
Living in Orange County and somewhat familiar with San Diego's resources, I can tell you what I do when buying a horn. I go to many of the local stores in the LA/Orange County area to get a sense of what is out there and how well adjusted the products are. A lot, if not most, of horns ready at dealers for playing need some adjustments for leaks and tuning. I call to learn stock before visiting. I take my own setup.
Since the soprano is the most difficult to play in tune, even though most new horns can be put in tune mechanically quite well, people new to soprano are best served by imagining the horn is in tune and their embouchure needs some learning for soprano. There are a lot of ways to tune your embouchure and horn. For example, play a low C, lip it up and compare the overtone to the C played with middle finger on left hand. Embouchure and mouthpiece correctly done, the embouchure and the mouthpiece location need little or no changing to have them in tune with each other. Assuming you now can play a soprano in enough tune not to be turned off by the horn in your hand, how do you find what you like?
I want to play a few horns in comparison and do the broad search to try brands for how they feel in my hands, quality of construction, appearance, et cetera. Most modern sopranos can be made to sound pretty similar by mouthpiece/reed/ligature variations. For example, straight necks can be made to sound as mellow as the bent necks though the bent necks sound more mellow for identical setups.
After figuring which brands and models are most likely to be what I want, I order some from Woodwind & Brasswind and USA Horn. Maybe you are down to Yamaha and Selmer at this point. They come to your house for your use over several days. You send back what you don't like and pay the shipping and stocking fees arranged in advance. These fees are not negligible but they sure are cheaper than my gas costs and time for running all over LA. And I get to play these horns over time in the place I want for sound comparisons.
Then you make your choice based on what local or internet dealers have or will order, pricing, service considerations, delivery time, et cetera.
Always try an example before you buy. Each manufacturer has slightly different features which may appeal or dissuade you. For example, I use a Selmer Serie II soprano as my main horn. The Serie III does not suit me as well. Nor do the Keilwerths, Yamahas, or Yanagisawas yet they all are superb horns. Everyone's hands, mouths, and other things vary so who knows what will be best for you. After you buy the horn, play it a couple of weeks to get it worked in. This means that you are getting adjusted to it mainly. Then take it to a competent technician and get it adjusted for leaks. Then you know all the problems are on your part, not the horn. Play with mouthpieces and reeds to start finding your sound, and avoiding the Koz sound you wish to avoid, after you get used to the horn for a few months.

Answer:
Andrew is right. Dave Koz does not use a Yamaha soprano. He uses a vintage Conn curved. And Dolson is right about Koz's sound: his "sound" is the product of mic'ing and sound processing. Although what every student of the saxophone should be after is the focus and center of pitch that Koz and all pros possess, especially on soprano.
The Yamaha and Selmer are both good horns, no one can deny that. I happen to play on a Selmer III mainly because I had gotten used to the feel of the Series II which was my first soprano and I wanted the high G key as an available option for when I play (it's also a killer horn). If you are a beginning soprano player, assume that any professional level horn you consider is in tune. It takes many many many months to get comfortable on soprano and to play it like a soprano. I find that many alto players and tenor players alike play the soprano like an alto or tenor. The soprano is its own beast, just like the alto is its own and the tenor is its own.
I find Roger's suggestion of trying out horns at local stores with all intention of buying elsewhere a bit troublesome. The local shops do pay rent too. You really should visit stores in good faith and give them a chance especially music stores because most are mom-and-pop operations. For you to be able to try a horn in their store is invaluable especially if there aren't that many stores around. Try this suggestion: do your price shopping BEFORE going to the store. Upon trying the horn ask them if they are willing to match or at least come close to the best prices you've found. In this day of the internet, they will most likely do something to get your business.
Have fun shopping!
Dr Ben

Answer:
I recommended trying horns locally before paying for internet shipping/trial fees, then deciding who had the best combination overall in several categories for your purchase. This keeps some of your costs down. Some may wish to trial mail order before going to the local stores. Negotiation of price, service, delivery, warranty, et cetera are all part of coming to a deal. The local shop may be the winner. Or mail order may win. Depends on your specific needs. I did not recommend trying local then buying global, as was implied by the previous post. Time is too valuable not to treat your own time and others' time in good faith. Happy playing!

Answer:
I honestly try and do business locally when I can. The old guy that I take all my repair work to, is the same guy my folks bought my first horn from 30 years ago. I know that if I take all business to the net, then one day I'm gonna go looking for him for repair work, and he'll be gone. That's the main reason I bought a little Taiwanese curved soprano from him a couple of weeks ago. I really didn't need it, but the thought had crossed my mind and he had one there for sale, so I figured I'd throw him what business I could afford to.
Unfortunately, his very low volume on pro level horns makes his prices on them way out of the ballpark. I was inquiring about a B901 Yani bari, and his price was going to be about $1000 above Matthew's. Now, he does give a years free maintenance work on any new horn, but with build quality of pro horns today, there's really not that much that goes wrong, short of dropping it or knocking it off of a stand.

Answer:
Thanks
Thank you for all the great suggestions. Looks like I have been afraid of Yamaha for nothing--the Dave Koz CD I had listed Yamaha as the instruments he played. I'm leaning toward Yamaha to avoid the very complex key structure of the Series III, plus my favorite local store carries Yamaha (although, again, nothing in stock.) I'll go up to LA to hear the sound. Thanks again.
John

Answer:
Wood WInds and Brass Winds
Order from WW & BW. You can try for 30 days and return for full refund and order the second horn and try it for 30 days. Then make your choice. This is the best thing going for those that don't have the selection in there area.