Question:
Tru Tone Bari: gurgling sound low F#, F, E
Hi guys,
I recently bought an old buescher tru tone bari via eBay, serial #224xxx. This horn was in awful condition: rotten pads, heavy verdigris all over and an incredible smell :cry: .
It took me like two days to clean it in my bathing tub before I handed it over to my local repair man for a complete overhault including new snap in pads etc. There were no serious dents and the original silver plating appeared to be almost 100%. My repairman did a very good job on it (as on all my horns!) and its now a fantastic sounding Bari. [A horn with such a fat low Bb doesn't need any low A! :) ]
BUT: there is a gurgling sound around the low E, which is player and mouthpiece independet. The overall intonation is quite good, besides the normal problems with old tru tones. Unfortunately my repairman is as clueless as me.
Does anybody know something about this? I already thought about installing half moons in the lower toneholes...
Thanks & kind regards from cologne,
Tobias

Answer:
Play down chromatically and note the feel of each note as you approach low E. If from G down it is worse, I would check to see that the G# is closing firmly and if it appears bad from F down, it may be the connection between the F and the F# pad (right above the F). Where I really think the problem is is with the rear Eb (if it has one). This is the little pad on the back of the horn around the D pad. Most of us cork this shut as it is not a popular fingering anyway. You can slide a piece of bottle cork between the small pad and the guard surrounding it. If all of these ideas fail, take it back to the tech to check for leaks. Another problem would be the old "gurggle" that is a curse to some older saxes. This is caused by a mismatch of bore of the horn to the bore of the mouthpiece. The sax may play well with an old tubby mouthpiece but not with a modern one. To correct this, you may try dropping something down into the bell to rest in the bow area. For a Bari you may need something about the size of a mouthpiece. On some of my horns I have glued a small knob in the bow. There has been some discussion about a metal baffle that was in some Buescher Baris. This thing ran down the inside of the body to give the same effect. I am sure someone here will explain it better than I can.

Answer:
Hello.
I had a similar issue after completely restoring my TT tenor a few months ago. After getting it back in beautiful shape from my tech, the low B gurgled. At first, I approached it as a setup issue--took it back to the tech a couple times. When that didn't work, I approached it as a playing technique issue. After a couple of weeks of long tones to understand that I was overblowing the low B, I was able to get a great sound all the way down the horn. The horn is still touchy on the low B with a dry reed, however.
I think Bruce is right that setup of the "alt Eb" mechanism is tricky. I like to keep the alt Eb operable on all my horns that have it, and I know that keeping it working correctly takes a lot of attention in setup and continual vigilance. However, the alt Eb shouldn't be a factor in playing any E on the horn. If it's not sprung shut, then it should be open when fingering E. The only problems caused by the alt Eb occur below E when the alt Eb should be closed. Typically the problem is that it's not closing completely.
I'm jealous that you have such an excellent bari. I'd love to upgrade my King Zephyr to a silver-plate bari such as you have :-)
Regards,
Rob Pratt
rpratt(at-sign)wordandsound.com

Answer:
I have also mounted (glued) a good sized cork in the bottom of the horn (usually right at the curve) I was having burbling with. Worked perfectly. Try dropping a cork down the bell of your horn and see if there's a difference. No cork? Try your mouthpiece cap. See what happens.

Answer:
...first of all I would like to say a big
THANK YOU!
to all of you for prompt and very helpful comments!
I think my bari is probably cursed as bruce described it. There are definetely no mechanical problems or leaks and the additional low Eb tonehole is not present. I tried it with modern mouthpieces, but mainly with my large chambered Rascher mpc. This one should be similar to the old buescher mpc in terms of chamber size (at least they always claim that his mpc is build according to the original patent of A. Sax...). I use a Rascher mpc on my Aristocrat tenor as well, which is actually my main instrument. Anyhow, I thought also of buying an old bari buescher mpc... Would you agree that this should not make any difference?
I occasionally work abroad and it always a lot of hassle to take a tenor with me (sometimes baris are just too big ;-). I am very keen on putting something in the bow and seeing how the horn reacts. I will do that as soon as I am back home. This time it could take some weeks, though...
Rob: why not going ahead and buying such a great old instrument on ebay or elsewhere? :) . I think they are traded incredibly far below their actual value. I am still getting tears in my eyes when I remember that I payed some 500$ for this bari :!: . Ok, it looked like a piece of trash at the time a bought it, but now it's such a beauty.
Again thanks and I will post another reply as soon as I have made some new experiences...

Answer:
Perhaps try a stronger leaklight or a different tech.
I have a '24 TT bari (and paid too much for it - but that's another story) and I found it is EXTREMELY sensitive to air leaks on the 2 G pads - the G# and the F (helper?) pad. Way more sensitive than any other bari I've repadded (Ok I've only done about 5 baris, but still). I fussed with the horn several months and found once I got the middle of the horn really airtight the warble went away.
If I don't support properly it sneaks back from time to time - but that's really my fault.
Once the horn was tight it was really a pleasure to play like it should have been.
Don't give up!
John

Answer:
Never had a prob with my TT bari but i do keep on top of it.The additional low Eb should be there on a 1927 horn. It sits below the low D and not on the bell and if you play low D and raise the F# key the low pad should open for Eb
Dave

Answer:
Teh back Eb DOES close for the E. I generally take the key off and put a small groove in the opposite side of the spring hook, tension the spring the other way, and this eliminates the need to have an ugly cork there. It just stays shut all of the time.
Another point I missed was that it is possible that this one has soldered tone holes. If so, don't forget to check for leaks at the base where the tone hole meets the body tube. If putting something in the bell makes it play right, then that will answer the leka question.

Answer:
Hello.
Bruce, ah yes, of course, now that you mention it and I think about it. So gurgle problem at low could certainly be related to alt Eb.
Regards,
Rob Pratt
rpratt(at-sign)wordandsound.com

Answer:
I've also seen a TT bari with a brass bar soldered inside the bore opposite the F/E/D toneholes. Speculating that this might have been there to cure gurgling or the low end being sharp.

Answer:
2 Attachment(s) I uploaded two pictures of the horn. And yes, there is the alt low Eb tone hole. I never realized that one, because I expected it to be on the side of the horn (as for TT tenors...).
For my eyes it does not look like soldered tone holes, but rather like drawn ones. But maybe I am wrong again?

Answer:
Bueschers of this era will have drawn toneholes.
No less of an expert than Curt (MusicMedic) Altarac has been baffled (pun intended :)) by the T-T bari's tendency to split notes in the lower right hand range. IIRC, he has experimented with tonehole inserts and such things, but never found a real solution - other than playing only Conn baris. 8-)

Answer:
I had a true tone bari (178xxx) once- same problem. Apparently someone in the past had tried to rectify it by soldering a 1"x1"x6" metal bar inside the horn opposite the F and D toneholes. You can imagine me thinking "MAN, this is a heavy horn!" until i found it.
I have heard some theories that the bore dimensions around that area are messed up, and that reducing the volume of the bore in this area is the key. I never played my horn with the huge bar in there- I had it in unplayable condition for a year before I overhauled it and the bar came out during the overhaul. It would warble down around E and D with certain mouthpieces-mostly (and counterintuitively) larger chambered pieces.
I wish I had more data, but I never got around to experimenting with reinstalling the bar or other devices before I traded it for instruments that didn't take up so much room in my apartment.

Answer:
So it pretty much goes right down the line then...
TT Sopranos are the best
TT Altos are excellent
TT Tenors are good
and TT Baris are okay... except for low E.

Answer:
That low E warble is a real pain in the backside. I've had a few TT bari's with this problem and it's always a hassle to fix. I have found that putting a liner in the bore behind the RH tone holes helps. The problem is that the liner lowers the pitch of the F-D. To compensate the rest of the instrument needs to be tuned to match. When all that is done, you are left with an instrument that plays stuffy around the F-D with a sharp low Bb (unless you fix that too).
That's the bad news. The good news is that this bari is newer than the ones that I have seen with the warble. Maybe it's just a leak. Many of the TT baris have a proclivity toward the warble, the later ones are much better. So maybe you have a leak that is exaggerating the warble.
I have a TT bari on my bench now where the owner said it warbled. This one is going out for satin silver and it will be fairly heavily modified. Anyway, once we got working on it -it became apparent that the seem on the bottom bow is split in three places (under the guard). The seem in the top crook is also split, the neck leaks bad and three of the soldered tone holes leak badly.
This will be an interesting instrument when it comes back. I'm sure that all these leaks must have been exaggerating the warble.

Answer:
My bari is the later version from 1929
Dave

Answer:
I had a late B bari and had similar problems with the D and E splitting. Mostly D2 wanting to jump up to A.

Answer:
First of all: thanks again for a lot of competent replies!
Back at home for a few days I have further examined this strange gurgling of my bari and I came to the conclusion that it is caused by the lower F#, F, E wanting to jump one octave higher
Unfortunately putting something in the bow did not change the behaviour at all. I tried small things like keys, mouthpiece caps, I also tried bigger things like mpc caps, several mouthpieces, really big things like a package of tenor reeds, a bunch of keys and more or less all different combinations of that. The gurgling simply peristed.
Then I tried my leak light (it's a pretty strong one) and investigated all pads. No significant leaks.
Quite close to giving up and using the bari as a flower vase I thought it might be a good idea to again try other mouthpieces. Since the bari is not my main instrument I have just got one bari mpc at home (the Rascher). But of course several tenor mouthpieces... and so it happened that I tried a tenor mouthpiece on my bari...
I know it's weird :-), but IT HELPED! No gurgling at all, nothing but full and dark, wonderful sounding deep F#, F and E. Or at least something close to that because the overall intonation was beyond good and bad. But it was possible to produce clean F#, F and E in 440 - 444 Hz tune.
Because of this I think I can rule out that there is a leak. Or that soldering something in the bow helps. I guess I have simply to keep on searching for the right small or medium chamber bari mpc.
Does this makes sense? Has anybody suggestions which mouthpieces I should try? Is there maybe a difference between old Bueschers and new Raschers... ?!?

Answer:
"Then I tried my leak light (it's a pretty strong one) and investigated all pads. No significant leaks."
But have you checked on those other sources of leaks that Curt suggested. A leak light seldom detects them....
- Split in the seam in the body or neck.
- failed or poor soldering of the joins in the upper body.
- Poor or failed soldering in the soldered-on tone holes, eg the octave vents.
Personally, I don't think your tenor mouthpiece test excludes these possibilities, because it totally alters vital parameters.
BTW, soldering something in the bow, as far as I am aware, is for burbles in the low B to C area, not for the symptoms you describe. And have you tried a different, conventional-type BARI mouthpiece?
And just a long shot... Have you tried putting the mouthpiece on or off the neck significantly further?

Answer:
My Mark VI bari had a warble on the low E and F# that had me ready to throw it out a window...
After working at a shop for some time I desided to go exploring, found two splits in the body seem, one beneath the upper bow guard and the other under the lower bow guard. The note is still somewhat fussy, but about 90% of the time I can now control it and the warble is completely gone.