Question:
vintage tenors: Aristocrat, 10M, or Martin?
I am looking for a second tenor to backup my Borgani. I have played 10M and like them, but the price is going up fast, and it's been twenty or more years since my hands have touched one. I don't know now how hard the transition would be to the Conn key layout.
I see a lot of Artistocrats at good prices but I don't know anything about them, never played one. Also, I don't know how to tell from the serial numbers etc, which is a good one to pick. Could definitely use help with that.
Never played a Martin, but would like to. They seem to be priced higher than the Artistocrat.
If it helps, I play both jazz and R&B. When playing jazz, I go for a round spreading tone, not a Breckerish focused one. I play everything from Ellington to Coltrane. Much of it is acoustic, no microphone.
But I need the projectiion for the Blues gigs.
Any help, especially in learning how to pick a good Artistocrat or BB, would be put to good use and greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Leon

Answer:
The Big-B Aristocrats (and earlier) and The Martin Tenors are very nice horns.
Both can be used for the field you're playing in.
Both can be played lush or screaming on demand.

Answer:
King Super 20.

Answer:
find 10mfan I got mine from him.... it is the horn to get ... especially having the borgani and the large bore thing going already

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I've owned a 10m, a The Martin Tenor (180xxx), and a Buescher Big B. You can't go wrong with any of them. I consider The Martin Tenor as the ultimate blues horn, and the Big B was a terriffic rock/pop horn with a Dukoff. All three of them have a great action no real intonation issues. Adjusting to the action for each comes within the first hour of practice.

Answer:
Leon, as already stated, any of these 3 horns would do the job for you. It's true the 10Ms have gone up in price, especially for one in good playing condition. Martins and Aristocrats are still undervalued (in comparison to Conn, King, Selmer). You might get the best bang for your buck with an Aristocrat. Any Aristocrat prior to about 1955 or so should be great. Some swear by the pre-war (WW2) 'Crats; others prefer the later Big B horns. I have a '49 silverplated model "156" tenor (serial #331,xxx) with the big bell. It is identical to the Big B except for the engraving. If you can find one of these, you'll get a real gem for a good price. The one I have is very free-blowing with a big bold sound like you describe. I hear the older pre-war 'Crats are more focused. In any case, be sure to consider playing condition.
Finally, if you get a good Buescher (or Conn or Martin), it might not remain in backup status for long. The Buescher I have was going to be a backup to my MKVI. The VI soon became the backup.

Answer:
Don't forget stencils, some of them can be players. I have a Silvertone tenor that is an odd stencil of a Buescher (I can't tell which, anyone out there who could help?) with an unbelievably lush low end and a clear upper range, easy altissimo, and amazingly good intonation. Not to mention they can be had for MUCH cheaper.

Answer:
The 10M and the Martin are very similar horns in their layout and how they play. Martins are among the most undervalued of the vintage horns. The 10M is a horn that just has a ton of power.
I've tried a 1935 Buescher Aristocrat and thought the horn was great. To me it seemed like that vaunted "halfway house" between a Selmer Mark VI and a 10M. If I wasn't already three-deep in tenors (Mark VI, Chu and 10M), I'd probably get myself an Aristocrat.

Answer:
If you looking for inexpensive, then stencils are the way to go. I'm using an Indiana, which is a Martin stencil similar to the Handcraft, to back up my Super 20.

Answer:
Re: vintage tenors: Aristocrat, 10M, or Martin?
Originally Posted by Leon Any help, especially in learning how to pick a good Artistocrat or BB, would be put to good use and greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Leon
Since you seem to be curious about the Buescher tenors, I'd strongly suggest you check a couple of them out. How to pick a good one: Get one in great playing condition from a reputable dealer! Don't just buy a beater on ebay, unless you're really strapped for cash or know exactly what you want. If you go through a reputable dealer (vintagesax, saxquest, etc.) you will also get a trial period so you don't get stuck with something you don't like. The Buescher might really surprise you! Or not......there's only one way to find out.

Answer:
I will 5th or 6th the Martin. A wholelotta horn for the dollar but going up steady. People are catching on. Well regulated they have a nice smooth sweeping action. The left table takes a little getting used to but I havent heard anyone raving about 10M keywork wonders either.

Answer:
I've heard lots of good things about Martins. I tried one once and even though it needed work, I thought it had a great sound. A friend of mine said he had one and couldn't play it in tune (he now has a 10M that he likes), but that may just have been him.
Of the three, (Martin, Buescher, Conn) the Conn seems to have keywork that feels the strangest to me. I have no difficulty going from the Buescher to my MKVI and vice versa, but a 10M feels a bit awkward. I suspect that would clear up after a couple of days playing one.
One thing I'll say for the Buescher. It has the best intonation of any horn I've played. It is definitely easier to play in tune then my MKVI, although the VI tunes well also. Playing in tune is truely up to the player (long tones!!), but I'll take any help I can get.

Answer:
I have a 1949 10M. It has a huge great sound.
I have had a THE MARTIn tenor. it is a great model too but very different.
I also have a 1939 Buescher Aristocrat.
Of the 3, I would consider the Buescher #3 in terms of my personal desirability because it is my personal opinion the keywork is a little kludgier on that brand and model.
I have played all 3 of the above model horns. I think all three have their own personalities in terms of tone and all three are great highly desirable horns.
I am mostly into Martins but if I had to choose between a comparable THE MARTIN and a 10M i would not know what to do. They are both so desirable.
As to the Aristocrat, mine needs work so I dont play it right now. But I have playd it in the past. I also have heard a local player on a 30's Aristocrat tenor that was refurbished by Mr Beason of Texas and the sound this player got on this horn was just unbelievably good. It had Beason flat metal brass resonators. Also people say the tuning is great on the Aristocrats and I believe that is true.
So if I were you I would pick up any of these horns you find that you can afford as you come across them.
I beleive the Conn is most versatile for jazz, the Martin would have a slight edge for blues or r&B, and the Buecher maybe would be best souped up for rock because the sound can be so incredible if it is refurbished right.
It is my personal opinion that of the 3 horns the least suitable for bebop type jazz would be the Buescher because I personally find the keywork kludgy but I know Bootman would disagree with my complaints of the Buescher keywork.
My dad is of the age that he was considering these horns in the 50's. His opinin is that the Conn and Martin were considered higher level, better horns than the Buescher.
Selmer would have been #1 in desirability, then Conn and martin in 2nd and then Buescher and King in 3rd. The silversonic attributes of King and the endorsements of pro players on Kings I believe was a marketign ploy to try to get more of the market share from the other companies.
I really like THE MARTINs, but i have to say i think the 6m and 10M may be better horns overall than the THE MARTINS.
I have THE MARTIN altos and a 10m tenor, and I wish I had THE MARTIN tenors and 6m altos too.
The bueschers are of less interest to me, i dont wish for Buescher Aristocrats as much.
As I said i have a Beuscher Aristocrat and a 10m tenor and i play the 10m. The 10m has better pads, but if i though the Buescher was more derisrable to play i would play the Buescher.

Answer:
Well there you have it, Leon. You'll get every possible opinion here, but the consensus seems to be that these are all fine horns, if in good condition. I think it is a mistake to overgeneralize, however. I'll add one more thing to consider. With vintage horns there is quite a bit of variation within a given model. So those of us who say we have such & such a horn and it's the best we've ever played may just have a particularly good one that might or might not be representative. It's a well known fact that MK VIs vary a lot from horn to horn. And I think it's true of the other models also.
My VI tenor has an entirely different sound from some others I've tried. Also, I tried a Super 20 tenor with the brass bell and silver neck that I wasn't impressed with. Then I tried another (a Silversonic) that was one of the best horns I've ever played. There is a difference between a 30's Aristocrat and the Big B. You have to try 'em.

Answer:
vintage horns, 10M vs. Martin vs. Aritocrat
Thank you for all of your input. Sounds like the choices are all good. I did get to play The Martin recently - great sound, but I had major trouble reaching the high palm keys - they seemed very short and I kept missing them - that would be a problem for me.
I don't live anywhere these vintage babies can be found easily to try - but eventually I will have tried them all and will make my choice and let you know -
By the way, I did try a TH&C - wow - almost went across the street to rob a bank.
Leon

Answer:
thats funny i said the same thing about a Conn Chu Berry but lucky for me the banks were closed and the casinos senior citizen security guards would talk me to death!!! bad idea. good luck Leon.>.

Answer:
There's a reason why we have a TH&C Club thread.
These are great horns. Hard to find but play like nothing else. Awesome power and feel. My TH&C tenor is a lot like an american muscle car. It's big, it's bad, it's sexy. My VI is more like an italian sports car.

Answer:
Leon - I know what you mean about the palm keys, but you'll get used to it. After a few hours, I had no problem switching back between my Martin and S20. They do make key risers, that may work. Although I cant speak from experience, since I've never had to use them.

Answer:
Re: vintage horns, 10M vs. Martin vs. Aritocrat
Originally Posted by Leon By the way, I did try a TH&C - wow - almost went across the street to rob a bank.
Leon
Leon, if you liked the TH&C, chances are you'll like the Big B and the 156, especially the ones with the big bell. When I was looking for a Buescher tenor, Gayle at vintagesax had a 331,xxx Aristocrat 156 with the big bell and a TH&C. Both had new silverplate and were in top playing condition. She told me she played them side by side and couldn't say one was better than the other. Also she said they sounded and played very similar to each other. The biggest difference was price and she could easily have sold me on the TH&C for more money, but she didn't. So I went for the the 156, saved some money and got a great horn. Gayle has played many Bueschers, so she probably has a good take on it.

Answer:
Re: vintage horns, 10M vs. Martin vs. Aritocrat
Originally Posted by Leon I did get to play The Martin recently - great sound, but I had major trouble reaching the high palm keys - they seemed very short and I kept missing them - that would be a problem for me.
The Martin definitely has low palm keys, but putting key risers on them is not difficult. Oleg sells some you can install yourself, but a better optionis to have a tech custom make some risers for you. I've even seen customization done to a Martin LH plate to make it easier to play.