Question:
Time Feel: *Experiened soloists please weigh in*
1. How do you keep your place during long modal sections?
1. How do you Keep track of time during someone elses solo (when the changes have gone all over the map and out the window) after the 28th chorus, etc.
If I could be granted one wish it would be complete rhythmic freedom with the ability to sense the passage of time even while having a conversation and know exactly how many bars have passed.
I believe that "following the changes by ear" is not good enough. I believe the soloist is just as responsible for keeping the time as the rhythm section is.
I watched a video of Coltrane playing a solo and after a crazy amount of choruses the band dropped out and he continued by himself for another 6 minutes or so. Then with no visible signals the band came right in at the top of the chorus (yes, i counted).
Now, I had enough trouble keeping track of the form while listening, rewinding, and counting on my fingers. How they did this on the bandstand is beyond me.
I play great solos without ever getting lost. However, (and I would deny this in the court of law!) I put on a filter that prevents me from playing exactly what's in my head because I know these stranger phrases (i.e. phrases in 7/8, 3/4, or 5/4 in 4/4 time) will cause me to loose track of the bar.
Similarly, during other player's solos, when chords go out the window after many choruses...I stand there on the band stand carefully keeping track of the choruses. If someone asks me a question or I get distracted I'm in trouble! Obviously when there are clear cut chords, etc... I can simply hear the form from the changes. I don't think thats good enough.
So during long stretches in one key I really want to play these phrases but opt not to because I'll lose track. So I play a very nice "safer" solo that makes everyone happy...except for me because it's not what want to play.
When I drive long distances I'll get lost in my thoughts and suddenly realise that I haven't been paying attention to how far I've gone...my first thought is "Oh no did I miss the exit." It would be nice to know how much further I have so I can plan my exit. If I'm lucky the road is well marked for dummies who were lost in thought like me.
**I don't want to HAVE to rely on signs (changes, a drum fill, etc.). I want to completely own the time...all the time.
Is it possible to own the time while ordering a drink at the same time?
I want to be able to play by myself freely for 10 straight minutes of whatever pops in my mind and when the buzzer goes off I know exactly how many bars or choruses I just played.
Advanced and experienced soloists please comment on this.

Answer:
I may not be the ultimate expert, but, I would suggest following keeping a reference to the melody in your head while someone else is soloing. Also, try to just keep working with the tunes in practice. It will get better it's a process.

Answer:
this may not be much help in the short run,but....
The deeper the music/song form is internalized, the easier it is to know where
you are, at all times..
...and ....where everyone else is(or isn't..)
I don't think there is any shortcut except to get as deep into the music as possible.

Answer:
That's what I wanted to say.

Answer:
Lost in Impressions is it? :D
When I'm playing on something like I think you're meaning, I try to keep in mind phrases of eight bars. If I'm phrasing over the bar lines at the end of a phrase, ie perhaps extending a phrase over the barline into the second bar of the next 8, I have to make myself hear both the irregular phrase I'm playing, and the structural phrase underlying it simultaneously, or I get carried away with the ideas I'm playing and go off into the deep dark abyss never to return.
If it's Impressions i.e. there's always the middle section in the new key to bring you back and in most modal music there's at least some basic regional tonal structure you can wait for to keep your place. Even that doesn't always work if the rhythm players are off in their own space and don't clearly define the sectional changes. You can also impose, yourself (as you play), alternate chord changes over the underlying structure in such a way as to let you control your direction.
I guess on one hand I'm lucky that I spent a lot of time as a contemporary-music composer and am comfortable with polyrhythms so I have a little better time playing irregular phrases over regular 8 bar chunks without getting (too) lost.
If one gets too lost and don't want to quit in what might be the middle of the tune, one can always bring another soloist in to trade fours and then when you've sucked the other guy in, you can just physically and dynamically back out and let him continue with the solo. You look cool and, hey, if he doesn't know where he is, well, that's not your problem now is it? :twisted:
Regarding knowing where the other soloists are, if I know I'm not going to follow them with my solo, I don't bother concentrating on keeping in place, I just groove with what he's doing. If it's the last solo before the return to the head, I'll start counting 8 bar phrases and, frankly, not be so absorbed inthe solo that I don't know where I am.
I suppose ideally, one can intuitively know where you are. There are times, to be honest, when I'm playing something without much structure that I do get lost and when that happens I quit trying to figure out where I am, I start playing with very big ears listening to the rhythm section, and play intuitively until I find some light shining through and many times it does.
I think this is a great question and I'm looking forward to more answers.

Answer:
Originally Posted by sinkdraiN I play great solos without ever getting lost. However, (and I would deny this in the court of law!) I put on a filter that prevents me from playing exactly what's in my head because I know these stranger phrases (i.e. phrases in 7/8, 3/4, or 5/4 in 4/4 time) will cause me to loose track of the bar.
I am in the exact same situation, sinkdrain. in the last couple years I have really progessed at being able to think of original melodies in my head, or just ideas that are more than just licks, more like clever melodies that fit. BUT, I don't dare venture into them in a solo for fear I'll get lost. This has kept my solos stuck in this rut of just "noodling" my way through so it all fits - 4, 8 16, repeat, then done.
to pick up on what Tryp is saying - I was talking to a very heavy and well known pro player at a club one time, and I asked him that very question - how do you "go off" like that for chorus after chorus and not get lost. He told me that what it comes down to is once you know a form so well that it is a part of you, hearing four chourses go by is as natural and easy as hearing four measures go by. It is hard to believe that this is all there is to it, but I guess it does make sense if you think about how hard it was to even get through eight measures when I first started improv. Ever since I got back into playing a few years ago, I've sort of been thrown in the fire a few times a gigs and my improv skills have started to come back to me. I don't always have to count four measures because the natural feeling of four measure sections has started to come back to me - that whole 4, 8, 16 feel. But how you take it to the next level where you naturally feel whole choruses go by is beyond me.

Answer:
I have a friend that is a guitar player. He has this gig that doesn't pay very much money so the ryhthym section guys that he hires are not very good or suck. He can play tunes and solos that make total sense over the most messed up junk. Nothing bothers him. He just "drags" them along with him. If they go to the bridge in the wrong place he won't go with them and keep playing what is right. It's pretty funny... just not funny ha, ha, you know.
My friend says he consciously counts all the time so he know where he is. 1234,2234,3234,4234 first time through A, 1234,2234,3234,4234 second time through A, Bridge234,2234,3234,4234 and onto the last time through A. I have the most difficult time remember if... it's the last time through A or the first time throught A... or is it the first time or second time through A??
I have to say that stuff to myself. I can't rely on my feeling it or hearing it. If you are looking for a magic trick I don't think there is one except consciously count. I just read somewhere where the question was ask of Mike Brecker, how do you feel time. Left foot on one & three right foot on 2 & 4. He still counts.
I have played with drummers that have their time so internalized that they know exactly how many choruses they have played. The best drummers that I have played with can sing the tune and solo off it just like a pitched instrument player. You can hear them quote the rythyms in melody in their solos.
I have been working on playing a capella. I started out playing the head, one chorus and the head. When I could do that, I went to head, chorus, chorus, head, then three chouruses, four choruses so that I could jump out of the solos when ever I wanted.
The next thing I worked on was four bars of head four bars of solo and four bars of head four bars of solo. Then I was really locked into the form and could jump back out of the solo at any time. It helped me "quote" the melody in my solos too. That really helps the listener stay hooked up to what you are saying.
It sounds like you are just getting to the point of juggling three balls, but if you drop one you can't pick it back up with out dropping all the rest. When you can do that, start juggling four balls and figure out how to pick up one or two when they get dropped. I don't think there is a short cut to counting.
Another thought is that I shed patterns and licks that are in four note groups so that I'm forced by material I play on changes to be in time. When I learned Take Five I came up with stuff that worked for that in the same way.
A drummer that I grew up with used to get me to pat paradiddles on my my knees. LL RR LL RR or RR LL RR LL, We used to get into a groove and then start putting the accent on 1 or 2,3 or 4. Then move the accent to the AND of 1 or 2, 3, 4. Then start inserting rests on various beats or the ands of beats. It was hard at first but every spare minute I had I would practice this stuff and consciously count. It really helped me internalize the time.
Good luck...

Answer:
The only tunes I can think of that match this description is either Impressions type stuff (So What, Milestones, Etc Etc) or something that's open on one chord (Freedom Jazz Dance, Lonnie's Lament [and yes I'm aware Lonnie's Lament has a vamp built into it but for all intents and purposes it's the same key]).
Most of the time in the tunes where it's one key only, the rhythm section ends up kind of spacing too. The whole point of that tune (or a tune like it) is to improvise as a BAND... no one gives a **** if you can play Giant Steps esque lines at 500 BPM over it, it's about taking the TUNE somewhere, you know? So just end when you feel like ending... length isn't important.
However over something that has some form of harmonic change, you need to know where you are. However these tunes generally only have a couple of keys so it's not incredibly hard to figure out. Just play in the A section key (so long as you're in the A section, LOL) until it changes to the bridge - and BAM! you know where you are.
Of course after a while you just get a feel for where you are. Doesn't mean you won't get lost occasionally, just happens very rarely.
-Dan

Answer:
As long as I have confidence in my rhythm section, I just try and listen at all times so that not only do I know where I am, but when I hit "wrong" notes, I know and can then resolve them as if I intended the dissonance in the first place instead of screwing up. Eventually I learn the chords/time relationship of a song by heart though, and then, I don't need to listen as much. When I don't know a song as well, I get by with knowing the melody. When I feel really confident in knowing it well, I start taking chances, and one time, I did chordal substitution by accident (or played the wrong chords, take your pick, but it sounded cool!) and I ended up coming back in the right place at the end of the chorus. Anyway, what Gary said. I wouldn't have known where I was after I screwed up and played the wrong chords without listening to and having confidence in the rhythm section.
A couple of times I've had a bass or piano player that I didn't have confidence in, and I would have to really know the tune then because I'd be helping them keep from getting lost by playing chords with the most clarity and made the most obvious sense. Doing that usually helped them keep it together.

Answer:
You just know.
I dunno, maybe the bass and drums cooking through the cycle gives the cue? Maybe the way the piano's vamping?
In those situations, I try to feel out the rhythm section to know how they cook. I played with a high profile Boston rock bands back ~12-13 years ago who's drummer would always lead into a new section with anticipatory phrasing. I always got a perfect lead into my solos with him, it was just too damn easy.
Learn the structure, catch the cues, play your horn.

Answer:
I usually hear the melody very vaguely in my head, and yes I can keep a conversation while waiting to come back in because the melody is on automatic loop in my head. If you know the tune, really KNOW it, you just know.

Answer:
I hear the melody going vaguely in my head as well. For 4/4 time, it also helps me to count in 1/2 time (every other beat) or 1/4 time (every "1"). I can usually feel 4 or 8 bar sections somehow too.
What confuses me most in this regard is trading 4s or 8s with a drummer that does some kind of crazy riff that distracts me from the basic time. I need to try to ignore the drummer and just count in these scenarios.

Answer:
Forget the chords- particularly in modal mode. You already have complete freedom, and just keep the melody in mind...
And if the guy in front of you is finally splitting after the 28th chorus, and doesn't leave you any set-up notes, just come in with the first part of the melody, and do 28 yourself.
Trane's MFT is a perfect example, 'cept they as a band never screwed anything up. Or if they did, nobody noticed, or even cared. Or maybe they were happy that it happened