Question:
Reed Vibrating Freely?
I've been reading this phrase repeatedly on all the ligature threads.
"It allows the reed to vibrate freely."
Is this really what you want and is it really what you mean?
Don't get me wrong, I understand that the reed has to vibrate to make a sound. Of course it does. But does that mean that the more the reed vibrates the better? Shouldn't the ligature hold the butt of the reed against the table as much as possible, and allow the end of the reed (the "business" end) to vibrate to make a sound? I certainly don't want ANY vibration where the ligature is. I want a perfect and unbreakable seal. Don't you?
From what I can tell, fabric ligatures (Rovner et al) are best at keeping a strong and consistent seal as they form to the shape of individual reeds. This is why articulation is easier on a fabric ligature. They are best at keeping the reed on the table. They keep it from "vibrating freely."
Check this out: We did a rather unscientific observation of this phenomenon in college. I thought I sounded better on a metal ligature, and wanted to prove it to my professor and classmates by playing fabric and metal ligatures side by side. My fellow students and teacher in the concert hall at various seating positions unanimously agreed that the fabric sounded better. A metal ligature might sound more colorful up close, because the player's ears are RIGHT NEXT TO the mouthpiece/reed/ligature. But it can't project as well as fabric, because the reed and mouthpiece are "vibrating freely." However a fabric ligature sounds muffled up close, but projects better because there is less wasted motion (vibration) at the mouthpiece/reed/ligature level.

The fabric ligature had more "horn" in the sound. Scientifically inconclusive, but observed and acknowledged nonetheless.
Let the debate commence.

Answer:
OK, here's my deal on this one...I did a paper on this subject once...
It is true that you want the reed sealed against the table of the mouthpiece, but there is some vibration in the butt of the reed that you want as well, specifically on the outside edges. This is why ligs that hold the reed from the center or those that hold it with four small points are popular. This helps give a better "core" to the sound.
What you don't want is lateral vibration, or any side to side movement. This is bad, and causes squeaks among other problems.
When someone says that the reed vibrates freely, what they really mean is that the reed vibrates freely to the extent that there is no lateral movement, the reed is sealed to to the table, and the rest of the vibrations are free, which gives more overtones to the sound. The other effect of this is to enable easier articulations because those are affected by the above phenomena as well.
From what I can tell, fabric ligatures (Rovner et al) are best at keeping a strong and consistent seal as they form to the shape of individual reeds. This is why articulation is easier on a fabric ligature. They are best at keeping the reed on the table. They keep it from "vibrating freely."
Yes, however they stretch out over time, and they need to be put on so tight as to choke off the edges of the reed. The Winslow actually solved this problem to an extent by means of little rubber bumpers. Unfortunately, they dug into the reed.

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Everything posted so far is consistent with my obersavations, as well. I go back and forth between a D. Bonade with the screws under the reed, and a Rovner Dark.

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I'm also in agreement with J. Max's observations. It's helpful to remember that reeds like the Vandoren 56 Rue and Alexander Classique (to name only 2...using clarinet reeds as an example) have a thicker cut which carries through the reed stock area. The butt end of the 56 Rue is higher than a Vandoren Traditional reed. It's been my experience that a thicker cut reed gives one a greater amount of resonance and tonal core to their sound. With this in mind (that the stock of the reed serves a purpose in tone production as do the front parts of the reed), allowing the reed stock to vibrate freely is something that some players overlook in selecting ligatures.
One complaint that I have about fabric ligatures is they can muffle some of the resonant tonal qualities generated by the mouthpiece. It's my theory that this can be discernned more easily with some mouthpieces than others. One problem I have with DJ's description of his lig trials is that we're only told about fabric versus metal ligs without knowing more details about the specific ligs that were used. I can think of several fabric ligs that might project better than some metal ligs in a hall. However, it's been my experience that projection and response are typically better with a well designed metal lig. Anyway, it all comes down to personal preference and what works for one as an individual player and the particular set up you have.

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Good replies. All I can add is that the whole butt of the reed is part of the sounding unit and to squash down the top with a ligature stresses the reed. Thus, it needs to have even pressure without putting too much denting on the top and keep the underside flat on the table of the mouthpiece.

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I use a 2-screw metal on soprano, an FL on bari, a Vandoren optimum on alto, and an optimum or 2-screw metal on tenor, depending on the mouthpiece. They all work and hold the reed on, while also fitting on the mouthpiece well. Some reeds just don't seal well, and though a fancy ligature and a perfectly faced mouthpiece might help, the optimums and the 2-screws seem to do the best job at holding the reed on. I didn't like the Rovners or the Olegature that I tried. I don't think they did a good job at holding the reed on for my particular mouthpiece and reeds. It's as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Roger Aldridge One complaint that I have about fabric ligatures is they can muffle some of the resonant tonal qualities generated by the mouthpiece. It's my theory that this can be discernned more easily with some mouthpieces than others. This isn't necessarily a bad thing for some us. It's one of the main reasons I use the Rovner Dark. The other being that it evens out the response of my setup across the range of the horn. For me, the ligature is more important in its effect on response than sound timbre.
But everybody wants to talk about sound timbre...

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Mike,
Great point about response. Absolutely! Typically, when I first approach a new lig it's with an ear for my sound. I do that with all of the parts of my equipment. I then typically need to spend more time with the lig to see how it does with response. One of the reasons why I recently switched from the Bay lig to the Master's was improved response....but also for tonal color and projection.

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I just bought a Fortissimo lig for my alto. Talk about resonance and the reed vibrating freely - it's amazing! I was using Rovner ligs, and after using the Fortissimo, I feel like th Rovner was putting a stranglehold on my reed. I'd highly recommend the Fortissimo.
Frank

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I guess my greater point is that each player has to understand their own setup as a whole, and then judge each component based on its contribution to the whole, relative to the other parts. For me and my horn, the ligature's effect on sound timbre is less important than its effect on response.

That's why - imho - it's almost foolish to recommend gear to other players. Each player needs to understand as much about their individual setup as possible, whether they're playing a student- or professional-grade instrument.

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Interesting responses to my post...
For the record, the ligatures used in the stated trial were a Rovner Dark and a stock Selmer metal (that came with my C*). The mouthpiece was a Meyer 5M. This was done on a Selmer Serie II Alto. About 11 years ago in college. Wow, am I that old?
I don't know about all of you, but I make adjustments to my reeds with a reed knife on occasion if there's a problem with the way it plays. I might adjust the tip if necessary or I'll make the reed more "balanced" from left to right. Basic stuff.
If the stock or butt of the reed is important the sound, and it needs to vibrate, then why don't we start making adjustments to that?! Here's something for ya. In college, we did an experiment with reeds where we actually chopped of the stock(butt) and left about a quarter inch to fit under the ligature. The reed played tha same with and without the stock. Granted it was with a Rovner ligature. Try it. Admittedly, its pretty hard to cut something that small with a saw!
The unscientific conclusion? The butt or stock is made for nothing but being held by a ligature. It's a handle for the ligature.
I'm hearing again about muffling the mouthpiece in a lot of the posts. Is the mouthpiece sounding muffled to *your* ears (which are 4 inches from the mouthpiece)? How does an audience member in the 10th row feel about it? Is the ligature muffling the vibration and absorbing them, or is it tranferring that vibration into the horn?

By the way, Doesn't the cork "muffle" the mouthpiece from the inside? That seems like a lot of surface area contact that would inhibit mouthpiece vibration. Although I admit, perhaps cork allows better vibration transfer than other materials. If so, should we make cork ligatures. If not, then the mouthpiece vibration argument is moot.
If a fabric ligature muffles the mouthpiece, then wouldn't a tooth pad do the same thing? Are you guys anti-toothpad, too?
I haven't had problems with stretching or bad sealing. On the contrary...
I'm hungry, gotta go.

Answer:
Great questions!
Regarding the muffling..... My observations are based on 3 levels of trial: my ears as a player, asking a trusted musician friend listen to me and provide feed-back, and finally having a musician friend try the equipment in question and I listen for myself. Sometimes I also listen to recordings of my playing as a means of comparison.
A recent experience of hearing how a Charles Bay gold ligature darkened and covered the sound was very dramatic. I asked a sax buddy to try the lig and we compared it with the FL silver lig he normally uses. In that way I could listen myself, standing at a distance. The difference was so extreme that we looked at one another in amazement. I've had similar experiences in doing a comparison between Rovner ligatures and FL metal ligs. The FL ligs produced a noticable improvement in tonal clarity, resonance, response, and projection.
I do not use a mouthpiece patch on my saxophone mouthpieces. Around 5 years ago, when I got back into playing, I used one. However, Ralph Morgan got all over my case about it. He told me about the design work that goes into his thinner than usual mouthpiece beaks. A patch, then, can be counter-productive to his designs. After Ralph told me this I went back and tried one of his saxophone mouthpieces with and without a patch. I also had a musician friend listen. There was a difference. So, I had my dentist smooth my front teeth and I no longer used a patch on saxophone. However, on clarinet I use a thin clear patch. I'd rather not use it. But, I found that it's helpful to my playing on that instrument.
I agree 100% with Mike's comment about how the individual pieces of our equipment interact with each other and everything is rolled up to the whole. My particular saxophone set up is built around my 1934 Buescher New Aristocrat and my tonal concept that developed from this horn. If I played a Selmer MK VI it's possible that I might use something different. Of course, it all comes down to the individual player. In this respect, I take "best lig" (or whatever) discussions with a grain of salt and see what works best for me on my particular set up and tonal conception.
Great discussion! Thanks for bringing it to us.
Roger

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+1 Interesting thread.
I like and have been using Rovners. I've been looking at Ultimate ligs by Francois Louis because they keep getting good reviews. It would seem the design of these ligs go against the whole wrap around effect of holding tight with the table.
Comments?

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Originally Posted by DJ Mix I don't know about all of you, but I make adjustments to my reeds with a reed knife on occasion if there's a problem with the way it plays. I might adjust the tip if necessary or I'll make the reed more "balanced" from left to right. Basic stuff. Me, too. Although not all that often any more. I prefer to keep a few different cuts of reeds at the ready.

Originally Posted by DJ Mix If the stock or butt of the reed is important the sound, and it needs to vibrate, then why don't we start making adjustments to that?! Ever hear of the old Vibrator reeds? The had grooves cut in the bark of the heel. There's also been discussion of how some folks would round off the corners of the heel of the reed, thinking it altered response and/or sound timbre.

Originally Posted by DJ Mix Here's something for ya. In college, we did an experiment with reeds where we actually chopped of the stock(butt) and left about a quarter inch to fit under the ligature. The reed played tha same with and without the stock. Granted it was with a Rovner ligature. Try it. Admittedly, its pretty hard to cut something that small with a saw! Try a coping saw.

Originally Posted by DJ Mix The unscientific conclusion? The butt or stock is made for nothing but being held by a ligature. It's a handle for the ligature. Not sure I completely agree with that conclusion. Too many people notice the effect of the various rail-type ligs, including me. I don't care for most of them because they slip around too much, and I like Rovners.

Originally Posted by DJ Mix I'm hearing again about muffling the mouthpiece in a lot of the posts. Is the mouthpiece sounding muffled to *your* ears (which are 4 inches from the mouthpiece)? How does an audience member in the 10th row feel about it? Is the ligature muffling the vibration and absorbing them, or is it tranferring that vibration into the horn? All valid points, especially the one about transferring the vibration into the horn. Personally, I think some of that does occur.

Originally Posted by DJ Mix By the way, Doesn't the cork "muffle" the mouthpiece from the inside? That seems like a lot of surface area contact that would inhibit mouthpiece vibration. Although I admit, perhaps cork allows better vibration transfer than other materials. If so, should we make cork ligatures. If not, then the mouthpiece vibration argument is moot. Check this out:

Originally Posted by DJ Mix If a fabric ligature muffles the mouthpiece, then wouldn't a tooth pad do the same thing? Are you guys anti-toothpad, too? It's been discussed. Ralph Morgan is agin' 'em.

Originally Posted by DJ Mix I'm hungry, gotta go. Me too! Lunchtime!

Answer:
Timbre is just the relative strengths and weaknesses of all of the overtones (/harmonics/partials) relative to the fundamental tone. The contribution to timbre from the reed must be directly related to the vibration pattern in the entire reed body -- which I am sure could be observed given sufficient test conditions and equipment (real-time terrain-mapping look-down radar?). The reed is vibrating all over, to a more or lesser degree. The function of the ligature, to me seems to be two-part: to fasten the reed securely onto the mouthpiece, and to selectively dampen various overtones (and maybe the fundamental) to the liking of the player! Sometimes more (fabric?) vs. less (metal?) of this selective damping is desirable. My guess is this explains why the variety of lig designs (and preferences for same) exists.

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Again, the idea is to CONTROL how the reed vibrates and gets those overtones out there. The butt of the reed is essential to this. If you cut it off, and then use a Rovner to hold it on, it really doesn't prove anything, because the Rovner should muffle the entire reed anyway.

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<sigh>

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[quote=DJ Mix]Interesting responses to my post...
I'm hearing again about muffling the mouthpiece in a lot of the posts. Is the mouthpiece sounding muffled to *your* ears (which are 4 inches from the mouthpiece)? How does an audience member in the 10th row feel about it?
To me is very important how I hear my sound: Maybe the audience can't feelthe lig diference but if I hear a diferent sound, and this is the sound that I want...I play better, sure.