Question:
What exactly is modal jazz?
OK this is something thats been confusing me for a while - i seem to be hearing two conflicting definitions.
the first is that modes are used to replace a traditional key centre - like 'so what' whixh alternates between e dorian and f dorian (on a Bb inst).
the second is that it describes the trance-like jazz of people like pharoah sanders and alice coltrane. an example often given is john coltranes version of 'my favourite things'.
the source of my confusion is that tunes that fit the second definition often have very strong key centres e.g pharoah's 'creator' (and surely 'my favourite things' is diatonic right?) so they don't fit the first definition and vice versa. i've also noticed that the first definition tends to be used by musicians while the second one is used more by listeners/labels.
come on somebody set me right!

Answer:
It's generally considered music where chord movement tends to be relatively static and sticks to one scale mode for longer stretches of time. This is definitely not a replacement of key centre. They will have very strong key centres, just much less traditional functional harmonic movement.
The term Modal Jazz applies to both Miles Davis' So What as well as a lot of the Alice Coltrane, John Coltrane, and Pharoah.
My Favourite Things is, indeed, diatonic, but they do away with much of the original chord movement in favour of extended vamps on the alternating Major and minor sections. The term Diatonic does apply to much modal jazz, as it usually uses modes derived from the Major scale.

Answer:
OK this is something i picked up off a website on music theory which seems to indicate a duality of definitions for modal-
'Modal compositions often take one of two different tactics. One possibility is to specify very few chords, allowing each individual mode to be used for an extended period of time. The classic composition in this style is "So What" by Miles Davis, which uses only two different chords during its 32 measure duration - one for the A section, and another for the bridge:
Pieces such as this have a strong sense of key center due to the repetition. Another possibility is to include chords that change as rapidly as is common in bebop - every measure or so - but which do not relate to any overall key center. Often, the harmonies are so complex that it is difficult to follw them at all. This type of music is also called "non-tonal" or "pan-tonal". An example is the Wayne Shorter composition "Limbo", as played by Miles Davis:
The second (non-tonal) approach was taken by Miles Davis in the 1960's, along with his bandmates Wayne Shorter and Herbie Hancock. It was this group that produced the album Sorcerer that contained the composition "Limbo". '
would you agree with this littleman? personally i find it hard to group these two approaches under the same banner of 'modality' - they seem too far apart to me.

Answer:
I would agree with both definitions. Traditionally, most people probably think of the term modal in relation to tunes like "So What" or "Impressions". Both of these tunes feature extended improvisation in the dorian mode while the rhythm section vamps on one chord. However, playing in the dorian mode does not necessarily mean there is only one chord providing harmony. For example; just as ii V7 1 are common in the major scale (the ionian mode), ii V7 1 also exists in all the other modes. In D dorian ii V7 1 would be, E-, A-7 and D-. It follows then that more complex progressions exist in all the modes. Therefore, you can have a very complex chord progression and still be in the dorian mode; and thereby be playing a "modal tune". In such a situation a definite tonal center would exist and each chord would be related to that center. Technically speaking, all traditional songs in major or minor keys are modal. The major key being the Ionian mode and the natural minor key being the Aeolian mode. Historically, all of the common modes derived from the major scale came from early church music and are often referred to as "the church modes". The ionian and aolean modes have become so common in western music that we have simply come to think of them as major and minor "keys" and not modes. So when we hear music that is in the dorian, or some other mode, we refer to it as modal to differentiate it from the common major and minor tonalities.
The other situation, where a series of chords do not spell out any particular tonal center, can also be thought of as modal simply because each chord dictates it's own scale or mode. Playing over such a chord progression would require you to constantly switch from one mode to the next in order to keep up with the chord progression. Or possibly to use a single mode that works over a series of chords until you have to switch to a new mode for the next series of chords.

Answer:
Originally Posted by Riff Technically speaking, all traditional songs in major or minor keys are modal. The major key being the Ionian mode and the natural minor key being the Aolean mode. Historically, all of the common modes derived from the major scale came from early church music and are often referred to as "the church modes". The ionian and aolean modes have become so common in western music that we have simply come to think of them as major and minor "keys" and not modes. So when we hear music that is in the dorian, or some other mode, we refer to it as modal to differentiate it from the common major and minor tonalities.
that's very interesting riff and makes a lot of sense. how about coltrane playing my 'favourite things' - technically thats no more modal than say coleman hawkins playing 'night and day' - both are, as you put it 'traditional songs' - so i suppose it's also a feel thing.
do you think this is also about marketing - for instance i have an album explicitly called 'modality' on impulse - but it has a wide variety of tunes including a strait ahead blues (the brilliant groove waltz by mccoy tyner). maybe 'modal' has become a tag for jazz with less of a straightahead feel.

Answer:
when coltrane played My favorite things , he abandoned the traditional chord changes to solo over extended modal passages where the chords were IIm7/IIIm7 repeated over & over then switching to a similar Major vamp. That's why its called modal.

Answer:
Originally Posted by Riff Or possibly to use a single mode that works over a series of chords until you have to switch to a new mode for the next series of chords. In fact, this is exactly what I was encouraged to do in college when studying jazz and improv theory. My teachers sometimes used this approach of playing from one modal scale to try and get us to hear longer phrases, and help us to not get lost when trying to follow the chord changes.
We would do these fun and challenging excersizes that involved going through the circle of 4ths (running ii-V-Is). The teacher was on piano, and would have the rhythym section go through the circle with him. The horns would take turns soloing. We would give each key signature two measures before switching. At first, the teacher told us to try to stay right with the key changes as they come along. Then the teacher would have us play in one mode over four of the key signatures before switching to another mode for the next four, and so on.
I found it was way easier to keep up with my solos and not get lost when we took the modal approach. When sticking to one mode for 8 measures, I could hear the key changing underneath me every two bars, and it made real easy to anticipate and modulate into the next mode. It made our solos sound cleaner and more melodic.
On the other hand, when we tried to stay right with the changes, it was sometimes hard for my mind to keep up with the new chord tones, and I ended-up fumbling a lot more and didn't have as good of a solo. It was like I was doing bad job of trying to follow the music instead of being right on top of it as a confident soloist should be.
I recommend all teachers try this with their students. I remember this being sort of breakthrough for me where I was able to get out of the blues scale and two-bar "licks" that I had relied on to get me through solos in high school.

Answer:
sweetsax
what you are describing - if i understand it right - sounds reminiscent of the whole vertical vs horizontal debate about improvising.
taking the II-V-I as an example: if i was to play the changes 'vertically' by, for example, playing the third of each chord on the beginning beat of each bar would this be a straightahead way of improvising? whereas if i was just playing on the I, the ionian mode, would that be a more modal approach?

Answer:
how about coltrane playing my 'favourite things' - technically thats no more modal than say coleman hawkins playing 'night and day'
What Lenny said.
taking the II-V-I as an example: if i was to play the changes 'vertically' by, for example, playing the third of each chord on the beginning beat of each bar would this be a straightahead way of improvising? whereas if i was just playing on the I, the ionian mode, would that be a more modal approach? I think you're thinking about this too much. Straight-ahead playing, to my mind, simply means playing within the tonality as opposed to "taking it out" by using substitutions and alternate chord-scales or modes. In this sense, you can play straight-ahead in any mode or tonality regardless of it's tonal center. Although I will admit that in today's jazz vocabulary the line between what's in and what's out is considerably blurred.
Regarding your II-V-I example:
If you were in the key of C major all you need to do is use the C major scale over each chord. You should however, be mindful of which chord is being sounded at any particular time. This awareness will lead you to play the 3rds and 7ths of the chords in the appropriate place. In other words, knowing how the chords are changing will prevent you from playing an F when the Cmaj7 chord is sounding, or a C when G7 is sounding. Other than those two examples, all notes of the C major scale are available at all times during a II-V-I progression.
Again, technically speaking, even though you're only playing a C major scale, you're also playing the appropriate modes by virtue of the fact that the chords are changing. When D-7 sounds, the notes of the C major scale are then called the dorian mode, and when G7 sounds those same notes are the mixolydian mode. So in that sense, you're playing modally.
However, the term "modal playing" is not generally used to describe this situation because the above example is in the key of C MAJOR. If this was all happening in C dorian then we would say you were in the dorian mode.
What's confusing is we're dealing with semantics here for the sake of identifying different tonalities.
Not to confuse you further but consider II-V-I in C Dorian.
The key signature of C dorian is two flats, which we all know identifies the Bb major scale. However, II-V-I in C dorian is not the same progression as in Bb major. (The progression is D-7, G-7, C-7.) Yet we're now in a situation where you can use the Bb major scale over these chords in the same way as in the previous example. On D-7 you would avoid playing Bb since this would imply a Bbmaj7 tonality on that chord, but there are no other avoid notes for the other two chords. Since your lines will now resolve to C-7 instead of Bb major, you're playing in the C dorian mode.

Answer:
thanks for the reply riff
again that makes a lot of sense. i think you're right - i am thinking about it too much and a lot of it is really semantics. there's a lot for me to think about in these replies and work on when i get my piano skills up to scratch!

Answer:
hey docformat, I'll have to defer to Riff here for a lot of these answers. I think his composing and arranging has his theory skills sharper than mine (I'm just remembering some college exercises). Anyway, what Riff says here is what helped us to not get lost when taking the modal approach I mentioned before: (because, again, your just playing the same modal scale and really hearing the harmony change underneath you)
Originally Posted by Riff You should however, be mindful of which chord is being sounded at any particular time. This awareness will lead you to play the 3rds and 7ths of the chords in the appropriate place. However, what I was doing in that college class was more of an improv theory exercise. The modes the teacher had us use were the simpler ones (dorian, mixolydian). Sometimes the scales we were playing really clashed and sounded bad against the key, especially when you got to the last key before switching. But the teacher would use those "clashy" moments to show how to use tension and release in a solo. For example:
When you are playing along over the same mode for 8 bars, but you are chaging keys and adding an accidental every 2 bars, the 7th and 8th bars can have a lot of dissonance before resolving in the 9th bar (start of the next 8 measures using different mode). Going around the circle of 4ths, it would happen at the change from Eb to Ab, for example, and then again at B to E, then finally at G to C to complete the circle. this is only the example from the circle of fourths exercise I was mentioning before. When using this method to solo in a REAL performance of a jazz tune, you would have to be specific about the modes you choose to use over certain sections, and choose them based on the key, form, and chord changes of that particular song.
Using the dorian mode, which Riff exlained in his post, is one way our teacher got our jazz band to have more complex and interesting solos on Latin and Funk tunes. Everybody's solos would sound the same on Watermelon Man if all we did is play the blues scale using straight eighths instead of swing. But by experimenting with modes, especially over the brigde, it can make it a little easier to come up with a more original solo and not sound just like the guy who went before you - especially in a tune like Watermelon Man, with a real simple bluesy form that has a simple little "B" section, and a restatment of the hook.

Answer:
Just as an aside, on Watermelon Man, you can also play the actual chord changes, instead of using just the blues scale or a modal approach. So you can play over the I7 chord for the first 4 bars, the IV7 for the next 2 bars, back to the I7 for 2 bars, then on to the V7-IV7 changes over the "B" section, etc.
sweetsax, which mode or modes did your teacher specify to play over the changes on Watermelon Man? If you follow what I said above, you could use the mixolydian mode for each of the chords--i.e. on the I7 chord (F7 concert) use F mixolydian, on the IV7 chord (Bb7 concert), use the Bb mixolydian mode, etc. But I'm not sure what single mode would fit over all the changes (other than the minor pentatonic or blues scale).

Answer:
When you are playing along over the same mode for 8 bars, but you are chaging keys and adding an accidental every 2 bars, the 7th and 8th bars can have a lot of dissonance before resolving in the 9th bar
As a theory excercise to demonstrate tension and release this would be fine, but as you said, in a real performance you would be more careful of what modes you select.
One thing a lot of pros do in modal tunes to add tension and release is to play a series of pentatonic scales in an ascending chromatic fashion. For example, on a D-7 chord they might start on A minor-pentatonic and go up chromatically to Bb minor-pentatonic, B minor-pentatonic, C minor-pentatonic, C# minor-pentatonic and finally resolve back to D minor-pentatonic. Usually they do this pretty quickly using 1/16th note rhythms and only play the first 4 notes of each scale. It's a good effect.
You could do the same thing using various modes or arpeggios instead of pentatonics.

Answer:
Originally Posted by JL sweetsax, which mode or modes did your teacher specify to play over the changes on Watermelon Man? If you follow what I said above, you could use the mixolydian mode for each of the chords--i.e. on the I7 chord (F7 concert) use F mixolydian, on the IV7 chord (Bb7 concert), use the Bb mixolydian mode, etc. But I'm not sure what single mode would fit over all the changes (other than the minor pentatonic or blues scale). We would use the simpler ones, dorian, mixolydian (as you said) and aolean (spelling? - the pure minor one).
Watermelon Man may not be be the best example, but it is a tune a lot of people know and recognize, so they can relate when I talk about playing two choruses each, around the whole combo in jazz band. The first 8 bars especially, everybody's solo sounds the same - blues scale, straight eighths. But as you said JL, you can uses blues changes (like the I - IV), and just stick to the regular chords to make it through with plenty of variation.
A better example of using the dorian mode was in a Latin song that I think was Sandunga by Arturo Sandoval. That was a tune that had a long solo section in the same minor key. The horns had a very rhythmic minor riff as the background part - it just repeated forever with the same minor sound. Then it had a quick 8 bar bridge that was just decending chromatic, then into a 2 bar solo break - back to the top of the chorus.
To get through the long solo section and have more variation than just the blues scale in even eighths, we would use modes - primarily, the dorian mode. But, we would also use the relative minor scale. For Alto - the tune was in F (with Bb), but you could play D minor (C natural, F natural, and Bb).
**** Help me out here Riff ***** what mode are you in when you play the relative minor of a major scale? Example: F major, go down three steps to D, play D to D with Bb as the only accidental - what mode is that?

Answer:
Originally Posted by sweetsax
what mode are you in when you play the relative minor of a major scale? Example: F major, go down three steps to D, play D to D with Bb as the only accidental - what mode is that? that should be aeolean (the natural minor)

Answer:
Originally Posted by namenotfound06 that should be aeolean (the natural minor) I thought that's what it had to be *duh* cuz it results in a natural minor scale :oops:
it's hard 'membering all that theoretical music I learnt in college. Ahhhh, college - so much knowledge gained, so many brain cells killed :)

Answer:
Originally Posted by sweetsax I thought that's what it had to be *duh* cuz it results in a natural minor scale :oops:
it's hard 'membering all that theoretical music I learnt in college. Ahhhh, college - so much knowledge gained, so many brain cells killed :) :laughing:

Answer:
i haven't checked up on this thread for a while so i've only just seen a lot of whats been written. thanks for the info guys - sweetsax i'm still not 100% sure i follow what you mean by that exercise but its probably not worth going into it too deep to be honest. good stuff.