Question:
Turned Down Audition
Recently I submitted an application to join the SFSYO and I my application was rejected :( . It said, "Thank you for submitting an audition application for the San Francisco Symphony Youth Orchestra. "Since it is so rare that the Youth Orchestra plays repertoire with a saxophone part, we do not hear auditions for saxophone as part of the annual audition process. However, we will keep your application on file in the event we program a piece including a saxophone part. Thanks again for your interest in the Youth Orchestra." I was shocked shocked when I read this.
I was really disappointed and I couldn’t believe that the Symphony Orchestra didn't have saxophonist as part of the Orchestra. I just don’t understand why the saxophone has not been widely accepted as a classical instrument. I really wanted to take part of this youth symphony because I thought it would be great experience to play in because I plan in pursuing a career in classical saxophone playing. It’s unfortunate that the saxophone cannot take part. Hopefully more repertoire will be written for it and it can be used in the classical setting.
Ricardo

Answer:
The main reason the Saxophone has not been widely accepted as a classical instument is that most of the great classical music was written before the instrument was invented. There really isn't much need for a sax in a symphony anyway, as most of the lines that a sax would play are already covered by either strings or double reeds. As for your ambition to pursue a career as a "classical" saxophone player, I can only say good luck. It's hard enough for a sax player to find work in popular music. Not to discourage you or anything, but have you considered taking up Flute or Clarinet? As far as classical music is concerned, there are a whole lot more opportunities for good clarinetists and flutists. Otherwise, you might want to consider honing your improvisational skills. There's certainly no shame in being a jazzer.

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I have to totally disagree with you Jeff. There is a lot of music out there for saxophone and orchestra. Unfortunately, the conductors who run most of the symphonies are to afraid to have a saxophone in their prized orchestras. Bizet wrote two different suites that have saxophone in them. Bernstein's orchestral piece has movements that include saxophone as well. I know that you probably weren't saying there aren't any pieces for saxophone, but we should not tell a person that they should start working their flute and clarinet chops because there is no way a saxophonist will play in an orchestra for classical music. Its just not true. I know a girl that played in the Ohio in a couple of symphonies their, and that group always played saxophone music. I'm sorry for you Rick that the people that run the SFSYO don't like a instrument that they probably know little about. They only think its good for jazz, which is totally wrong.

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Some very good points there Jacob.
Don't get discouraged for getting turned down by the symphony orchestra. There are many successful classical saxophone players out there, and I know of college professors, private teachers that are doing very well. You probably won't play gigs as often as a jazz sax player, since a classical sax player would receive more quartet/small combo work and there aren't too many venues for that. Being a teacher, whether privately or in a school, isn't so bad. At least the income is pretty stable.
The saxophone is indeed capable of playing classical music. It's all a matter of sound, inflection, phrasing etc. Those SFSYO guys ought to listen to some Eugene Rousseau or Paul Brodie. 8)

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Although as Jakob says, there is some great music for sax and orchestra, or for a sax part, but I wouldn't say there is 'much' of it. It is not a standard intsrument in the orchestra and most of us could probably name the few major works that actually feature it. Most professional orchestras have people they call in when they want to play Bolero or Pictures at an Exhibition - it doesn't happen much. If you want to work reguarly with an ensemble, find a wind band (also known as a concert band, symphonic band or military band). The standard can be awesome, and the saxophones are an important part. But if you joined an orchestra on just saxophone, you could wait literally years before they play a piece that calls for saxophone. The other approach is to join on clarinet if you are good enough and keep nagging the MD to play pieces that call for sax in the ensemble or as soloist.

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The Youth Orchestra in my city does include saxophonists, as does the Symphony and Wind Symphony.
Some do, some don't.
Those who double well get more work no matter what they play, especially classical musicians.

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the point that's been brought up a few times is simply that there is virtually NO repertoire for saxophone in an orchestral setting. I would say that of all the orchestral music available, maybe 5% or less contains saxophone parts. In this sense, it is every bit understandable why a saxophone audition would be turned down for an orchestral camp. This is nothing against you or your playing, it is simply the reality of the instrument as far as orchestra is concerned.
If you REALLY want to participate in a group ensemble, a wind symphony (ie symphony band, military band, concert band, etc....) would be your best bet. Saxophone is a fairly integral part of the ensemble sound. And play in some sax quartets; chamber music is a VERY important aspect of music making that many people overlook in the quest to become "great soloists".

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Rick, have you thought about sending a CD of some songs to the md? I only play in my school's band, jazz groups, lessons, and a marching band and I don't know exactly how music is selected. But maybe if you suggest something with a sax part that the director likes he will consider playing it. Just a thought. :roll:

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eagle, I did ask if I could play a solo piece for the saxophone with the youth symphony but she told me... "The only option for student musicians to be considered to be a guest artist is through the Youth Orchestra's annual concerto competition. The concerto competition, however, is open to Youth Orchestra members only. Since we do not have saxophonists in the orchestra, you are unfortunately, not eligible to enter the competition."


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I could see why they wouldn't want to do a saxophone concerto, but perhaps you could convince them to program a piece that includes saxophone (as they mentioned in their letter) sooner rather than later.

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Well Rick, it sounds to me like she's simply sticking to the rules, as she basically just told you, "because we've never had saxophones in our orchestra, we can't have saxophones in our orchestra. Sorry.", and with that statement, makes it evident that it's impossible for a saxophonist to play with that orchestra. :x My suggestion is to look elsewhere, this program obviously isn't even the least bit flexible, and even if you somehow did perform with them, you would probably be met with some steam from the other players. :?

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"because we've never had saxophones in our orchestra, we can't have saxophones in our orchestra. Sorry.", and with that statement, makes it evident that it's impossible for a saxophonist to play with that orchestra.
I think that's an oversimplified reading Razzy.
Please note the distinction between a piece of music with a saxophonist in it (with some solos, of course) and a saxophone concerto, which is basically a saxophone feature with orchestral accompaniment (I know, an oversimplification of "concerto" but you get the picture).
I think it would be great if they would program a piece with saxophone. However, I can totally understand not allowing a saxophonist to audition for their concerto competition.
Think of it this way - what if you were in a jazz ensemble that had a competition for a featured soloist spot. You, along with everyone else in the group, have been busting your hump with this group - working hard, making a valuable contribution.
Then some harp player that's never done anything with the group (not that s/he didn't want to, but there just aren't many harp parts in standard jazz ensemble charts) comes in and wants to have a crack at that featured soloist slot... it wouldn't really be fair to you and all the others that have been working hard with the group all this time.

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Then some harp player that's never done anything with the group (not that s/he didn't want to, but there just aren't many harp parts in standard jazz ensemble charts) comes in and wants to have a crack at that featured soloist slot... it wouldn't really be fair to you and all the others that have been working hard with the group all this time. Max, I think that’s a little over exaggerated. Were the original intentions of the harp to play jazz? No, I don't think so. On the other hand, the saxophone was invited to play classical and that’s why I tried to join the youth symphony in the first place. I wanted to show that the saxophone could have its place in the youth symphony but unfortunately I was not given that opportunity too. They only think its good for jazz, which is totally wrong. And if you've been busting your hump trying to get a solo and the harp player gets it instead than you don't deserve that solo. That harp player must be damn good and you should give him/her a chance so show it. I guess my point is you should not limit or restrict any type of instrument to a style of music.
Ricardo[/quote]

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I guess my point is you should not limit or restrict any type of instrument to a style of music.
Agreed, but you do have to deal with the realities of the world...

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And the realities are, as a number of us have said, that as there simply are not saxophone parts in most SYMPHONY orchestra pieces, such orchestras only call on sax players when occasionally needed. They do not form part of the regular composition of an orchestra - same for the harp as a good example. As a young player with orchestral aspirations, Ricardo will have to hone his skills regularly elsewhere and grab the occasional opportunity to play sax with a symphony orchestra when it happens.

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It pretty much remains a fact of life that many orchestral saxophone parts are played by an available clarinettist or bassoonist.
They may not always be the best saxophone players, but they are quite often superior orchestral musicians.
While I count saxophone as my major instrument, I play frequently with orchestras as a bass clarinettist. I get way more playing time that way, and get to develop my musical skills within that context.

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Originally Posted by max I think that's an oversimplified reading Razzy.
I'm not too sure! Let's use your harp analogy and flip things around a bit, shall we? Say this excellent jazz harpist applied to play with a jazz band, and the jazz band director said: "The only option for student musicians to be considered to be a guest artist is through the Jazz Band's annual featured solo competition. The featured solo competition, however, is open to jazz band members only. Since we do not have harpists in the jazz band, you are unfortunately, not eligible to enter the competition."
Now, me being a saxophonist, even if I were a member of the band this harpist were applying to, I would have problems with my director being this inflexible and taking this stance. There definitely ARE pieces with saxophone for orchestra, even if there was only ONE I would definitely consider the saxophonist for playing on that piece with the orchestra, if he was of sufficient caliber to do so. Same goes for the harpist. Even if there is only ONE piece in all the repertoire for jazz band, or even if the solo was transcribed from some other instrument to harp, I would definitely consider the harpist for performing the tune, such that, as before, he/she is of sufficient caliber to play the part and the song itself is of sufficient level and taste for the jazz band.
If nothing else, I'd ask that the director be a bit less cirtuitous about the whole thing and simply tell the harpist, "I'm sorry but we are not open to guest solists unless they play an instrument of the standard jazz band instrumentation" or something of the sort.

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There definitely ARE pieces with saxophone for orchestra, even if there was only ONE I would definitely consider the saxophonist for playing on that piece with the orchestra
See my next paragraph in that post on the distinction between a piece with saxophone and a saxophone concerto...
My point is that I can fully understand why the director would choose to enforce the concerto competion rule.
I definitely do think they should consider programming a piece with saxophone (as I've mentioned several times now).
Can you see the difference?
...and yes, the "guest artist" wording is poor, since the competition isn't really open to guests at all (including violin-playing guests); it seems as if it's only open to current members of the orchestra.
That doesn't change my point, however, which is - once again:
- programming pieces with saxophone (such as Pictures...) =
good, should be encouraged;
- not allowing saxophonists to compete in the concerto competition (with pieces such as the Ibert) =
unfortunate, but perfectly understandable.

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Well guys, I just received an email from the same person that turned down my audition and she told me of another youth symphony in my area that dose accept saxophone auditions. They are touring Japan and are playing a Gershwin piece that requires a saxophone section. Not only that, but the saxophone section is part of their orchestra year around! Auditions are this spring! :D
Rick

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So many place to start---
Perception becomes reality until the truth is known. Create your own reality. You could almost turn this into a crusade.
1. Do research on what pieces have been programmed in the past and what pieces with saxophone(s) would aesthetically fit in their programming and skill range.
2. Prepare excerpts from the most likely pieces to be programmed.
3. Make sure you can play your instrument better than any other orchestral auditioner can play their's. You MUST be able to play better than the skeptics. This is the #1 problem with classical saxophonists today. Plain and simple, the schmoozers with the people skills getting the jobs do not have the playing skills to advance the public impression of our instrument.
4. Do not take no for an answer. It will be difficult not to come off as pushy, but more people need to make waves and fly in the face of tradition. Yes the classics are good and important, but when was the last time Ben Jonson or Emily Bronte was on the NY Times best seller list. It is possible to honor the traditions of the past by looking forward.
5. Be prepared to actually be accepted. This will be a little like a girl trying out for the boy's football team. People will wonder if you are trying just to say that you did or if you are really passionate about your music. Do not try to be the exception for the sake of being the exception. If you do get in and fall on your face then they will think a lot harder about the next saxophonist who inquires.
The bay area has a TON of great classical saxophone players. Look up some and try to get allies to your cause (lessons too). If the youth symphony accepts saxophone literature then the professional groups may have a softening as well (more jobs for them).
This approach can be used successfully with the C, B, or even A level professional orchestras. The most important thing though, is to be able to back up your hype with your playing. Your persistence and tenacity should be directly proportional to your playing ability. It is a tricky dance to do. I have over-sold myself a couple of times. Fortunately there was another saxophone player better than me to take the job I wasn;t ready for.
JD