Question:
Swinging too hard/too much...
I know this is going to be largely based on a difference of opinion, but I need all the help and suggestions I can get. :)
Ok,
I've been playing the sax for about 10 years and most of it spent in the classical end of things. I've only been taking lessons since Feb. and I've just started playing jazz. (AHHH!! Run away!! Run away!!!) Intimidating and confusing!!
I'm working out of the Lennie Neihaus, Jazz Improvisations book.
I've been working on it for 4 weeks and I haven't gotten past the 1st Improv. Solo. (There'll Never Be Another You)
My teacher says I'm swinging too hard/too much. He says it sounds like dotted 8th/16ths.
We'll play the solo together and I'll match him, but as soon as I get home something must happen and when I come back the following week, he says I'm doing the wrong thing again.
He's really nice about it and he says I'm doing better, but I can tell that he gets irked by my lack of progress.
It bothers me that I can't feel it as a solid thing or that I'm really getting the technique.
(In JH/HS they pounded dotted 8th/16ths into our heads, and I'm really trying to break the habit.)
Are there any suggestions anyone can give me? Any CD's that I could listen to in particular.
Maybe a jazz exercise book with a CD, to supplement the Neihaus book, so that I can hear what I'm doing wrong?
Any suggestions, help, would be greatly appreciate.
And for the don't double post or search before you post pet peevers, I searched the entire site and didn't find anything like this. :) I'm sorry if this is a pre-posted question. I really did search before I post. :)
Thanks for any help in advance. :)
Amy

Answer:
No exercise book will show you the "proper" way to swing. You can only learn from listening. This said, here's a suggestion.
Listen to Lester Young. I recommend the Lester Young Trio CD or the Ken Burns Jazz, basically any Lester. He basically set the style for how to swing the saxophone in a modern context. Charlie Parker, Dexter Gordon, Gene Ammons, Sonny Stitt, Johnny Griffin, the entire Cool Jazz thang, those are just some examples of his influence. Listen to his legato phrasing and relaxed time. Try to play like that, EXACTLY like that. If you think it's easy....then you're obviously not playing attention to it! The notes are the easiest part of playing and learning jazz.
Record yourself and see if you have matched that feel, that time. Or actively listen while practicing a scale or line or pattern in 8th notes. If this doesn't help you, read on.
Another way to think about it is this. If you break down our concept of swing, it relates most to a triplet pattern. It's NOT dotted 8th/16th as it is often written and taught (incorrectly!). Any good jazz musician will tell you that. The exact swing is almost impossible to notate, but it's CLOSER to a triplet with the first two eighths tied together. This is a basic, simplistic breakdown, but it's the closest you can notate how we swing.
So think, trip-a-LET, trip-a-LET, with the LET syllable being the next note. So your "accent" is on the upbeat. Again, accent is too simplistic a term to try and describe this, and only through active listening can you figure out what I mean. Even Coleman Hawkins, who did not swing the way Lester did, and had a very heavy bounce played with this triplet feel. Again, you have to listen to these things, you will not be able to read a book and learn it from anything on paper.

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if you want an academic approach to it, set your metronome to triplets and play a bebop scale in 8th notes. Set it SLOW, regardless of how fast you can play. Maybe about 80 or 90. Play the up beats on the last 8th note of the triplet. SLOWLY, and pay attention to how that upbeat falls within the rhythmic schema. Now set the metronome to quarter notes and try and replicate the previous feel. Listen carefully, and make sure you are NOT playing your old habits. Try and use this feel everytime you work out of that book.
This is no substitute for listening to records, but it's far better than trying to play everything with dotted 8th/16th. I don't know where that corny rhythmic device came from, but it's the bane of jazz musicians everywhere!
Don't be discouraged. The stylistic subtleties of jazz are the most difficult aspect of it, not the notes. That stuff can not be notated, and can only be really learned via the long and involved process of checking out records.

Answer:
Thanks Batman.
I was looking for someplace to begin, when it comes to listening and this was a suggestion I was hoping for. I'm so sick of buying books!
I'll never have a problem adding another CD to my collection! :)
I love to listen to jazz, but I'm not that much of a jazz player.
I've taking to picking apart everything I listen to these days.
Something my teacher told me to do and I've been amazed at how it's helped my classical playing.
I've heard so much Hefeitz in the past six months I want to scream. They are right when they call him a "cold beauty". The man NEVER made mistakes! Insane!
Thanks again for the suggestion.
I'll have to make a special trip up to the Sunset Blvd. Tower Records, seeing as Best Buy STINKS when it comes to jazz (and classical)!
Later Days. :)

Answer:
Lester Young is the place to start if you want to learn to swing, in the modern sense. Coleman Hawkins is harder to interpret and understand if you don't have that triplet feel (he plays it, but it sounds more like the dotted 8th/16th to untrained ears), but he is good to check out nonetheless.
Lester Young Trio
ANY Lester Young with Count Basie
Ken Burns Jazz Lester Young
Lester Young from a Cool Perspective.
Basically any Lester Young, but those are good starting points. The Trio is a MUST have.
Once you understand and can replicate his sense of swing, then suddenly someone like Charlie Parker, or Dexter Gordon, or Johnny Griffin becomes much easier to understand from a rhythmic "pres"pective. LOL.
I assume you play alto, so you should also check out Benny Carter, Johnny Hodges, and then Charlie Parker. If you are listening correctly, you will be able to see where Charlie Parker was regarding the first two, and Lester and Coleman Hawkins.
It's a process, and you just need to spend some time with it. It will come, but it might take some time.
Sigurd Rascher was also a very flawless player. The Hefeitz of the saxophone! :)

Answer:
This is how i like to think of it...
This is what I used to visualize when i had the exact same problem.
Behind..............Groove..............Ahead
|---------------------O---------------------|
The beat always hits on the groove beat. Your first eighth note will hit right on the groove, and ur last eigth note should end there. Both notes need a length it to thought, no stacatto dotted sixteenth type notes. if you tap your foot, the second eigth will be right after your foot starts going down.
Another tip, relax before you try to swing. If you get tensed b/c the swinging is really ticking you off, take a couple deep breathes, and imagine that ur breating out the tension in your body with each breath.
And.... Just like everyone above me said, listen to alot of jazz! It helps to tap ur foot, or hand with the music, just like how i'm typing right to the beat of the song i'm listening to right now (Play that funky music white boy) Hehe, but its something that you've gotta feel in you, not a technical thing. Alot of ppl have harder swings (as in the second eigth will be considerably shorter), and alot of softer swings (where the eigths are pretty much the same)
its annoying when my teacher makes me swing so hard.... ><

Answer:
Another thing to listen would be some Count Basie or Thad Jones/Mel Lewis stuff. For some reason I hear swing the most in really swining big bands. Those bands accentuate all of the points about how to swing. i.e. How to play time, how to articulate, etc.
Good luck.

Answer:
Originally Posted by BATMAN Listen to Lester Young. That's exactly what I was going to say. I would aviod anything post-1945 or so initally. There is some good material there but Lester was not at the top of his game. Any of the late 30s/early 40s stuff recorded with Count Basie is premium. Also, if you can find some of the small group material that was recorded with Billie Holiday, you'll have an excelent example of early swing.
I would also recommend "Stan Getz and the Oscar Peterson Trio." It is a jazz-lover's must have.
Louis Jordan is a little less sophisticated than some of the jazzers of that era but swings just as hard.
If you want some non-sax music, pianist Dave McKenna swings harder than just about anyone.
Finally, in my opinion the greatest living swing tenor is Harry Allen. I would check out some of his material as well.

Answer:
Well, I think to what I've heard said about sounding like a .8/16th pattern and I always remember "Ricky-Ticky"(the lombardo sound, from that show in the 50s...). Probably just read over it and your books probably say stuff about it but it's a key element to swing imo, LEGATO! that and practice. scales up and down as legato swing as you can make them, it helps eliminate the "Ricky-Ticky" feel. .8/16ths almost always seem staccato to me.
The other guys pretty much nailed it, listen listen listen, and when you're done, listen some more, and then maybe listen more after that. What I used to do was put it on a cd player quietly at night and have my alarm wake me up loud in the morning. Of course, I also took over the car on my way in with my mom (highschool) so everybody I was with listened to jazz almost all the time.
When you aren't listening to jazz, you're practicing it. I spent a great many hours in practice rooms and at home with this. Next thing to do is practice with others who swing well.

Answer:
It took me a long time to get the swing rhythem into my head. I was also fine when the teacher is around, but not when I'm by myself. What helped me is that there is a Jazz band in our school that anyone could join without an audition. Being there for a year went a long way. Now I'm playing bari in the school's "elite" jazz band. The more you play jazz with others, the more it'll bang the jazz rhythem into your head. Listening to a lot of jazz also helps.
My favorites right now are Gerry Mulligan (Bari Sax) and Vince Guaraldi (Piano). Benny Goodman also seems pretty good.

Answer:
best way to get a swing feel is to practice your technical work in a "swing" fashion and toungue the second note (not the first or both). it's important to remember that doing something swing means that quavers are played as a triplett with the first two notes (of the triplet) tied together. Listening to anyone else who plays swing professionally live or on a recording is a good idea the more you listen the more you're exposing your mind to something new ;)

Answer:
My teacher says I'm swinging too hard/too much. He says it sounds like dotted 8th/16ths.
The dotted 8ths/16ths feel was actually used in the '20 to "swing" the notes. Listen to some old Bix Beiderbeck and you will here it.
I have run into this with quite a few of my students. All the suggestions are valid, but put emphasis on feeling it instead of thinking it out. Here is a more technical way to help: Instead of thinking or feeling dotted 8ths/16ths, think of triplets. The first 2 notes of the triplet tied together followd by the third triplet. It will smooth out the swing and give it a more modern feel.
It has worked for my teaching for years!

Answer:
One other option to think about - instead of having to worry about hitting the "right notes" at the same time you are trying to work on rythm and tempo, maybe focus on just running up and down scales in different keys - dont worry about improvisation or even playing a song until you get the feel for swing on scales. I do this sometimes as a warm-up. Scales are something we all just do without really thinking about it which leaves you free to work on the swing

Answer:
The dotted 8ths/16ths feel was actually used in the '20 to "swing" the notes. Listen to some old Bix Beiderbeck and you will hear[sic] it
I've listened to a bit a of Bix and Louis. Even then, the "swing feel" as notated by dotted 8th/16th is wrong. Even back in the day, when jazz was in its infancy, the triplet feel was still there. It's built into this music. In classical music, the duplet is the predominant time division, and I suspect that in the attempt to write out early jazz, by non-jazz musicians, the dotted 8th/16th came about as the best representation they could find of the "swing feel".
a short anecdote: Our Jazz Band Director was telling us how when he was with the LCJO, they would sometimes play pieces with orchestral accompaniment. In the orchestral parts, the notation for swing 8ths was quarter note, 8th note, with a triplet above (essentially a triplet with the first two beats tied). The ENTIRE piece was notated like this to make the orchestra play "swing". The jazz musicians looked at the parts once and couldn't figure out how to play it! In contrast, the Jazz musicians had regular 8th notes. The orchestral musicians couldn't figure out what it was that made the jazz musicians play swing, without the notation there to tell them! I thought this was a bit of a funny story...and shows how dependant our music is to the concept of listening and emulating. You can't "properly" notate swing, especially since there are so many variations of how to do it!
Anyway, the dotted 8th/16th....I don't believe "swinging too hard" is the correct terminology, since it's not swinging at all! Coleman Hawkins swings real hard. Lester Young has a lighter swing. If you listen to their feel, you hear a big contrast, but they are both playing with the same concept of triplets.
Once you've heard, listened to, and absorbed enough different types of swing feels, you will be able to easilly hear when you're (not) swinging or if someone else is(n't).

Answer:
Batman - I was one of two arrangers with a professional symphonic band. When I first began writing for them my arrangements were having a hard time swinging while my colleague's swung better from the start. When I asked him about it and took a look at his score to see if maybe I could notate rhythms better, I discovered, LOL, that he had (in the same spirit of your example) written the drums, saxes, trpts and bones in 4/4 and all the others in 12/8!

Answer:
I've listened to a bit a of Bix and Louis. Even then, the "swing feel" as notated by dotted 8th/16th is wrong. Even back in the day, when jazz was in its infancy, the triplet feel was still there.
I re-listened and you are right! Better examples would have been Guy Lombardo and Lawrence Welk who were NEVER known for swingin'. :D

Answer:
I discovered, LOL, that he had (in the same spirit of your example) written the drums, saxes, trpts and bones in 4/4 and all the others in 12/8
I think my director said the orchestral parts were in 12/8 also. This is why the jazz musicians couldn't read them....they were too complicated!
I re-listened and you are right! Better examples would have been Guy Lombardo and Lawrence Welk who were NEVER known for swingin'. :D
LOL! Also, a LOT of people that grew up with these said bands (and are now band directors) are a kind of culpable too for perpetuating the dreaded 8th/16th "swing feel". Can't blame people for having poor taste I guess, :lol:

Answer:
Smart people have actually measures and studied this - there is an excellent article at
What they have discovered (not unsuprisingly), is that the ratio of long to short notes gets closer to 1:1 depending on the speed of the song. On really slow songs, the ratio can go as high as 3.5:1 (where 3:1 is dotted-eight/sixteenth and 2:1 is triplets with the first two notes tied). On fast songs, even the hardest bopper tends to even out the eighths!
So anyways, sax...girl, your own personal style can vary quite widely, but when playing in an ensemble, the director should indicate the style (for a specific song) to the group to follow.

Answer:
Smart people have actually studied and measured this - there is an great article at
What they have discovered (not unsuprisingly), is that the ratio of long to short notes gets closer to 1:1 depending on the speed of the song. On really slow songs, the ratio can go as high as 3.5:1 (where 3:1 is dotted-eight/sixteenth and 2:1 is triplets with the first two notes tied). On fast songs, even the hardest bopper tends to even out the eighths!
So anyways, sax...girl, your own personal style can vary quite widely, but when playing in an ensemble, the director should indicate the style (for a specific song) to the group to follow.