Question:
Santana interview - Elvin Jones passing...
Subj: Santana on the death of Elvin Jones
Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2004 9:29:01 PM
By George Varga
UNION-TRIBUNE POP MUSIC CRITIC
The SAN DIEGO Union-Tribune
May 30, 2004
A hippie at heart, Carlos Santana has long championed music as a potent force
for creating positive vibrations that – as this veteran of the 1969 Woodstock
festival puts it – "can change your molecular structure."
But the legendary rocker sounded uncharacteristically angry during a
discussion about the recent death of one of his musical heroes, jazz drum icon Elvin
Jones, who died May 18 of heart failure.
Santana, who will be honored in Los Angeles as the 2004 Latin Recording
Academy Person of the Year on Aug. 30, is incensed that Jones' death elicited scant
media coverage. He expressed his frustration during a recent interview from
his San Rafael office.
"I'm really embarrassed for this nation, and for MTV and VH1 and Rolling
Stone, because it was a very racist thing not to acknowledge this most important
musician when he passed," said Santana, whose 1999 album, "Supernatural," won
nine Grammys and has sold more than 25 million copies.
"For them to (play up) Ozzy Osbourne and other corny-*** white people, but
not Elvin, is demeaning and I'm really embarrassed to live in this country."
The mustachioed guitarist and bandleader first heard Jones in 1965 on the
John Coltrane Quartet's epic album "A Love Supreme," about a year after the
teenaged Santana moved to San Francisco from Tijuana and became an American
citizen. He was immediately struck by the force of the quartet's music and the impact
of Jones' polyrhythmic drumming.
"When that intro comes in on 'A Love Supreme' it's like the gates of heaven
opening," Santana, 56, said. "In fact, when I die, if I don't hear 'A Love
Supreme,' I'll turn back; I'll know I'm in the wrong place. For me, Elvin was
N**mero Uno, forever, for all ages, for all existence. I miss him terribly; I've
been playing his music nonstop since he died, especially 'Agenda' (from Jones'
1969 'Poly-Currents') with Joe Farrell (on sax). He was a supreme drummer who
was doing things that were totally different than anyone else.
"When I hear Elvin's music I hear the pyramids, I hear African and
pre-Columbian music, and I hear the future. Elvin is the beat of life itself, and his
music transcends 'clever' or 'cute' or any superlatives. When he and Coltrane
played, and everyone else in the quartet dropped out, that's what Jimi Hendrix
would play if he was still alive. That's what John McLaughlin wants to play,
and he's alive, because there is nothing more pure or vibrant than Coltrane and
Elvin."
It is because he holds Jones in such high esteem that Santana was angry at
the absence of media tributes to the masterful drummer, who was 76 when he died
and kept performing until just weeks before his death.
The reason for the slight, Santana believes, is a matter of racial and
cultural prejudice.
"When Miles (Davis) died (in 1991), for four hours in France they stopped
everything on TV and radio – all the regular programming – and just showed Miles
for four hours, all through France," Santana recalled. "Here in the U.S.,
it's embarrassing (how jazz is treated). People should be ashamed of themselves."
MTV and VH1 are virtually jazz-free, and the music has historically been held
in much higher esteem abroad than here, in its homeland.
But Santana believes exceptions should be made for musicians as notable as
Jones, who Pearl Jam drummer Matt Cameron hailed as "a major force to be
reckoned with" who could "wow the pants off a jazz fan or non-jazz fan" alike.
"If I would've been running MTV, I would've stopped all the corny stuff they
show and shown one of Elvin's (drum) solos. Because he represents the highest
level of creativity, like Duke Ellington," Santana said.
"America is such an ignorant country. I understand that I'm hard on America,
but if you look at all the (alarming) things on CNN, (you'll see) we need to
grow up quickly. We need to crystallize our existence because we place economic
values over spiritual ones.
"I'm hurt. And if I was a little hard or cruel with MTV and VH1, they deserve
it. They need to stop showing what they are showing, and show real musicians.
Why do they keep showing such stupidity? MTV needs to reassess its
priorities."
George Varga

Answer:
thank you greg,first of all for bringing this to the forum. i like to thank george varga to interview and report a heavy musician's(carlos) heartfelt grief,sorrow, and the state of things as they are for the last 40 years. surely its not just his opinion that speaks out loud. i knew he was creative the first time i heard a santana album on my turntable many years ago. you don't have to like jazz to know creativity/improv in other forms of music that also reach. when carlos recorded "love,devotion,and surrender" with john Mclaughlin and guru i heard A LOVE SUPREME. i will always love carlos through his commercialisms his deep friendships with great musicians. his past and his future. wouldn't a better tribute to ELVIN,OR MILES,WAYNE,HERBIE be to go to his own big budget label with super producer;clive davis and say lets record and honor my hero/mentor/guru in my way on my dime and just let it be heard regardless of a commercial failure. because mainstream america just wont hear it! no, the recording conglomerates and powers that be wont be able to hear those cash registers ringing there favorite chime/ring. either way we lose an american original. maybe in twenty years from now when ken burns decides to add everything back that was left out or on the cutting room floor of his neat film. one of those frames of film will be elvin jones. just my opinion.

Answer:
I certainly feel Carlos' pain and frustration over the lack of acknowledgment of Elvin's passing, and the general ignorance of jazz in this country. However, I must add that MTV and VH1 are not about art, they're about commercialism.

Answer:
It's a damn shame that Elvin's gone; he was a musical spirit, his drumming could put you in a trance.........ultimately, I don't think that it's racism to blame for the lack of coverage on Elvin's unfortunate passing, though it is rascist; ignorance is to blame......Elvin played with a zeal and passion that our culture and especially our shallow, self-serving media just doesn't get. You have to shut-up and listen to get it. Narcism won't allow that..........

Answer:
I, too, mourn his passing, but do we really think that MTV should have aired a special about him? Come on, their audience would have changed channels in record time. I'm so tired of everything being labeled "racism" if the outcome isn't what we think it should be. I agree with the above poster, it's not racism, it is musical ignorance that is to blame.

Answer:
I agree with Carlos. And I also agree it is ignorance. And it's racism because ignorance leads straight to racism. This sort of thing and many other recent events highlight the rampant ignorance of the American public (sorry, but it's true). The only good news is that we can't overgeneralize. A lot of Americans are "educated" and "enlightened," but they are in the minority. Maybe that's just the way it is. The media is focused on the "bottom line" and it is geared toward the ignorant majority.

Answer:
Racism in some degree or other, is part of the fuel that america runs on. put another way, it's a part of the water we fish live in. it takes a herculean and not especially rewarding effort to see and understand that, and more to subvert or otherwise change it. as a nation, we're not yet ready to pay the price; who likes being a fish out of water? our awareness of and reaction to racism is generally directly proportional to it's impact on our own lives. my guess is that carlos' life has probably been impacted more by it than some others...

Answer:
How come I read this on our little obscure saxophone forum before I see it anywhere else? Because most news sources, like most music sources, is full of candy coated, bobble-head blurbs, whatever lures the groomed sweet tooth masses to the advertisements.
Racism is a form of sewage that floats down the river of capitalism. At first, Santana's pointing at racism as a reason seemed like an over simplification. I mean, you see people like Prince, Alicia Keys, etc. getting plenty of respect on the airwaves. But if you trace it back to the days when guys like Bird and Monk were routinely swept aside because you couldn't have a black man exhibiting such intellectual talent and genius, it becomes clear. Jazz music in this country was hurt long ago by racism, and the effects of that linger on today.
And I don't believe the argument that, "oh that music wasn't danceable" as a reason why jazz music lost popularity after the swing era. People like to dance in Europe and Japan, too don't they? All kinds of jazz are way more popular there than they are here. Heck, you can go to Japan as a jazz musician and star in soap commercials!
This music was swept under the rug in the 40's and 50's by the industry in charge of promoting and selling music. The cabaret laws in NYC may have been a local thing, but they were indicative of the times. Jazz music continued to grow and innovate in the 60's, but by this time it was an underground music.
Here's a what if: Let's say Stan Getz was black and John Coltrane was white. How would Getz/Gilberto sales compared with A Love Supreme? Now I know the bossa stuff was more 'palatable' for most folks. But would it have been even promoted to be such a commercial success? Would A Love Supreme have been palatable to more listeners had precursors like Miles and Bird been given the airplay in the 50's that someone like Elvis had?
And a white Elvin, he certainly would have been a bigger name than Buddy Rich. Even moreso in a hypothetical world where jazz had been given it's due by the media for all these years, untainted by the racism that prevailed during it's development.
So I don't think that the racism that Santana talks about is some editor or producer sitting in a room now deciding not to run an Elvin Jones segment because he's black. I think it is in reference to the historic subversion of jazz by the racist powers at be in this country, which manifests itself today in the form of MTV, VH1, and the many large record labels which dictate and groom our music tastes to maximize their profits.
In Europe and Japan, racism did not squelch jazz music the way that it did here. Look at all the musicians that took refuge abroad in the 60's...Dexter Gordon instantly jumps to mind. And without the same racist bias of the media, jazz was presented more frequently and in a more favorable light. I don't like to think of it as "educating" the audience. But they put out good music for people to hear, and they had the natural reaction: they liked it!
Flip forward to today and you have a thriving jazz scene in Japan and Europe with an audience acclimated to the music. In the US, you have hoards of mouth-breathing Green Day fanatics and a flat fifth is when you need a new spare for your SUV.
So no, MTV would not have spent four hours playing Elvin Jones. But if you peel back the layers of history, you understand why. And it's not at all unreasonable to lament that this is the direction our culture has gone.
We're going to just have to take it upon ourselves to promote jazz in this country, since it seems that no one else is going to do it.

Answer:
When Dave Brubeck dies, I don't think MTV or VH1 are going to say anything about his death. Brubeck is white, and his musical contriubitions and skill deffinitely equal Elvin Jones.
I love Elvin's playing. It's amazing...save for Art Blakey, he's easily my favorite drummer. I'm really sad to hear he's gone. But I don't think the fact that he got so little coverage is because he was black. It's because he played jazz, and in america, very few people, especially today's generation, care at all about jazz or the people who play it. I don't deny racism is a very big problem in this country, but I really think in this case, it's more about musical ignorance, as someone said, than racism.

Answer:
I don't believe Stan Getz got much of a media tribute, either.
My prior rambling post seemed to suggest that perhaps racism in the past prevented jazz from really securing it's place in mainstream culture in this country. Not suggesting that because of racism today that somebody decides, okay let's not run a story on this guy.
Perhaps the guitar was just a heck of a lot cooler. And the capitalist music industry 'capitalized' on that fact the only way American industry can, on a grand scale! Rock music took over and we never had the option to look back.
Okay, that could be the story, too. But purely one scenario or the other? Probably a mixture, it's only reasonable.
Posting now in light of the passing of Ray Charles, obviously there's a lot more than race going on. He got lots of airplay even despite conciding with a week of mourning Reagan. Of course, Charles wasn't strictly jazz.
Point taken about Brubeck. Although, I'd expect at least a smidgen more coverage even if only because lots of people can hum "Take 5" or recognize his music from car commercials. What's in the news still is going to boil down to ratings and what news can bring more viewers to ads. (But yeah, it's not gonna be by much, certainly short of what's deserved.)
Santana made a very bold statement. Maybe outlandish taken literally. But it certainly made me take a look at racism in jazz history as a whole, not just where things stand today, but how they got there. People do have to stand up and play 'devil's advocate' to stir up thought like this.
Perhaps I like it better than a sanitized, untarnished version of history because it seems more realistic. When time comes to draw my own conclusions, I don't want a paint-by-numbers.
I guess that's why I like jazz, too. It makes you think.

Answer:
I love jazz, classical, rap, alternative, reggae, and every music genre under the sun. But what pi$$e$ me off are those elitist folks who look down on the common denominator like it's just dirt. Lamenting racism that took place decades ago and then lambasting others who don't listen to the same music as you is the pinnacle of hypocrisy. Who are you to say what is music and what isn't? Who are you to say what is creative and what isn't? You vote with your dollars, so let me vote with mine.
By "you" I mean Santana and anyone on his side.
The people who knew and loved Elvin Jones's music are happy to celebrate him, and I encourage that. The rest of us don't need accusations and dirty socks being shoved in our mouths.
We need to crystallize our existence because we place economic values over spiritual ones.
Oh yeah big boy? Then give free concerts from now on, and "enlighten" us.

Answer:
Elvin, as others have said, was in a class of his own.
Santana is right to be so angry and hurt. While I love many things about the U.S., I am saddened that we are so focused on consumption and materialism. I believe that this (materialism) is the root of many of our social ills.
Furthermore, while the dearth of media coverage for Elvin Jones may not be blatantly racist, it is simply wrong to believe that American is not an incredibly racist society. Put more simply, fear of and hatred towards non-whites is an incredibly potent cultural force. So, I think Santana's critique is generally pretty sound.
Our culture, generally speaking, sucks! We glorify and value all the wrong things. The prevaling ideology, however, is so powerful that it is difficult to get people to examine our culture critically.
The fact that jazz, in general, and Elvin Jones, in particular, are largely overlooked is no surprise. It is sad and disheartening, though.

Answer:
"The point is, ladies and gentlemen, greed is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed in all its forms–greed for life, for money, for knowledge....greed will not only save Teldar paper, but that malfunctioning corporation known as the USA."

Answer:
yo electricninja,
24 years on the planet and you figured it all out eh? nice goin'...

Answer:
When you live life in a bubble, it's easy to say this or that is "the way things should be", this or that is what's "really important" in life, this or that is "real music", etc. But that is just another name for "control", which is opposite of "freedom", which is what you need for society to evolve and life to be enjoyed to the fullest. I have my legions of people far above 24 who understand and back me up on that. I should know, because they are the ones who taught me, and they surround you wherever you are, whether or not you know it. And yes, some of them even play sax.
*end rant*