Question:
No biting = no tone
I'm a junior in high school and have been playing for about 6 years. My first instrument was the clarinet which I played for a little over a year before switching to bass clarinet which I played for almost 4 years. Shortly after I started playing the bass clarinet I started playing tenor sax also. I stopped playing the bass clarinet and started playing tenor exclusively until about 2 years when ago when I started playing the alto.
In the past 4 or 5 months it has been brought to my attention that my alto sound is very bright and extremely sharp in the upper register. After doing a little research I believe that i'm biting to produce notes above an A2 :line6: which is causing the poor intonation. My embouchure is likely far less than perfect but my private teacher just recommended i bring my chin down, the only way I know to achieve that is fold my lip out. This doesn't really help me much. If I don't "bite" (what I assume is applying pressure with my lower lip up onto the reed) then I can barely produce any tone on a C3 or higher. I have pushed as much air as possible into the horn without biting and all I get in the upper register without biting is a very ugly, weak, and inconsistent tone.
I do have braces and believe they might be causing some of the problem. With my lip folded out and chin brought down rather than my lip on top of my teeth, my lower lip rests against the braces rather than my teeth so it is petruding outward a bit more than normal due to the braces adding width to my teeth. I'm not too sure if this affects anything but my natural embouchure was to fold my lip over my teeth so that my braces didn't cut into my lower lip. I figure if I didn't bite I wouldn't have to worry about them doing that though.

Answer:
Folding your lip out is not a bad thing IMO. Some people think it is bad.
To use a folded out lip you do need to work on developing your lip muscles a lot.
You may get a lot of contrary advice on this forum , if you already having lessons, it's going to be confusing if it conflicts with what your teacher says so beware.
If you want to go with a lip out embouchure, you do need to discuss it with your teacher, who is in the best position to understand your particular way of playing. Good luck.

Answer:
The easiest way to check for 'biting' is to play the mouthpiece without the horn. The buzz on alto should match an 'A' concert. If the pitch is higher, bring it down.
I had braces as an adult. It did not affect my playing one way or the other. As my teeth changed, I had to make incremental adjustments to the amount of mouthpiece in my mouth.
Hope this helps.

Answer:
Originally Posted by hakukani The easiest way to check for 'biting' is to play the mouthpiece without the horn. The buzz on alto should match an 'A' concert. If the pitch is higher, bring it down.
Close, but surely this would depend on which mouthpiece was being used wouldn't it?

Answer:
Originally Posted by Pete Thomas Close, but surely this would depend on which mouthpiece was being used wouldn't it?
My experience is that it's pretty consistent. Although this is a Rousseau technique.:)

Answer:
i have 3 tenor mouthpieces, and they all produce different pitches when played without the horn with the same ammount of lip/jaw pressure.

Answer:
Playing on the mouthpiece alone is similar to playing in the upper register. It takes a whole bunch of air to get a weak tone that often cuts out. To get it consistent I have to bite into the reed a bit and then a A# is produced but I get a clear, consistent tone. Surely there is a simple solution to fix my inability to play without biting.

Answer:
Try thinking warming the air(like making frost on the windowpane), and blowing down. This opens the throat (saying ah). You should be able to get lower pitches than A#--in fact you should be able to play a chromatic scale of at least 3 pitches.
You might want to take a little more mouthpiece in your mouth.
To satisfy the other guys, what mouthpiece are you using?

Answer:
Originally Posted by princeganon i have 3 tenor mouthpieces, and they all produce different pitches when played without the horn with the same ammount of lip/jaw pressure.
It's a rule of thumb, ie a place to start.
Tenor produces close to a G.
here's a link to an experienced teacher.


Answer:
S-80 C*, Vandoren Traditional size 3 reeds
To warm the air I kinda think 'uhhh' with my throat and the pitch drops. When I do this in the upper register or with just mouthpiece I get that weak, inconsistent tone.
For the most part all I play on alto is legit stuff so that is why i'm trying to get a fuller/fatter tone rather than the thin and bright tone I get now. I'm also hoping proper embouchure will take care of my terrible intonation problems in the upper register.
I don't necessarily have a lip out embouchure. As I said it is difficult to do that because of my braces. With my lower lip out my braces cut into my gums on the bottom. I have something in between. I always have solo and ensemble, district/state tryouts, state jazz band tryouts, etc and my private teacher is reluctant to go into fixing my embouchure problem. He is also waiting for me to get my braces off but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Answer:
There are three common methods to check if you are playiing too high on the pitch (biting). One that has been mentioned already is that the mouthpiece alone produces an A Concert. Another easier test is to play the mouthpiece and neck together with the mouthpiece on the cork where you normally tune. The pitch on what I call this "tone producer" should be an Ab Concert. The third test found in the book "The Art of Saxophone Playing" is to play a low A and have someone else (without you knowing when) flip the neck octave key open and then shut. If the note jumps to the high A and comes smoothly back down after a slight hesitation, then the embouchure pressure is about right. If the note goes to a flat and flabby sounding high A, the embouchure is too loose. If the note jumps to high A and tends to stay high even when the octave key is closed, that means the embouchure is too tight.
An exercise that I have used with my students who have learned the bad habit of "biting" to get the high register is to have them play a low G in tune watching the meter on their tuner. Then I have them "lip" the note about 20 to 25 cents flat by dropping the jaw and chin and opening the teeth. When this is accomplished, I ask them to bring the note back up to pitch (in tune) with just the lip and muscles around the mouth while keeping the teeth apart and the jaw pulling down. When this sensation of not biting starts to be comfortable, I have them play long tones---low at first and then gradually higher.
One more concept that might help. Play low C f with your best tone. Then play middle C with exactly the same embouchure and feeling in the throat, just a bit less air that goes faster. Then play the high C with exactly the same embouchure and throat (that the low C required), again with a bit less air at an even faster speed. In other words try to play the normal (not altissimo) register of the sax with the same embouchure setting and relaxed throat from low Bb to high F. Once you have learned to do this you will be amazed at how easy and natural it really is. Please note that the airstream, shape of the oral cavity, and positon of the tongue do change as the notes go higher or lower, but the embouchure and relaxed, open throat do not.
If your braces are sharp and uncomfortable you might try using EZO brand denture cushions to cover the braces and lower teeth. You just cut the material to an oval shape the size you need, soak it in hot water for about 30 seconds to soften the wax, and then form the "patch" over the teeth/braces where it will serve as a cushion for the bottom lip. Good luck. I hope some of my ideas are useful to you.
As I was writing my "essay" you posted some more information that helps to see the big picture. Check that you are taking enough mouthpiece in the mouth. For most players on the alto sax the top teeth are approximately 5/8'" back from the tip. Also try to let the air do most of the work by doing what I call "playing on the airstream". The easiest way to understand this is to play a high G on your sax, and then with a loud "air whistle" produce the same pitch using fast cold air. Then play the high G again with exactly the same kind of air that the "air whistle" required.
You may know these things already. I'm just trying to cover all the bases for you and anyone else reading this thread who has the same problems with the high notes. Again, good luck.

Answer:
Okay, S80 C* is DEFINITELY an A, mouthpiece alone.
So, yeah thinking uhh, or warm the air, anything to open your throat. Since we know your mouthpiece now, how about reeds. C# is a pretty closed mouthpiece, so you probably want to use a pretty stiff reed. . Make sure your tongue is not too arched (think ah not eee). Also, don't pull the corners of your lips back, they should be relaxed, just the opposite of most clarinet embouchures.
You'll get it, it just may take a little time.
JBT has some good things to say, too. He posted while I was writing this.

Answer:
Originally Posted by princeganon i have 3 tenor mouthpieces, and they all produce different pitches when played without the horn with the same ammount of lip/jaw pressure. This raises the question: "Are you playing the mouthpieces, or are the mouthpieces playing you?" ;)

Answer:
Originally Posted by hakukani C# is a pretty closed mouthpiece, so you probably want to use a pretty stiff reed. .
Hi Hakuani,
what do you think would be a stiff reed for a beginner? I have a similarly closed mouthpiece, a yamaha custom 4c, which has an opening a tiny bit smaller than a Selmer C* and has a rather angular (square?) chamber. I'm using 2 1/2 ricos, and I wonder if I should move on to a 3. I don't really have trouble with my set-up at either side of the instrument's range.

Answer:
Originally Posted by jbtsax There are three common methods to check if you are playiing too high on the pitch (biting). One that has been mentioned already is that the mouthpiece alone produces an A Concert. Another easier test is to play the mouthpiece and neck together with the mouthpiece on the cork where you normally tune. The pitch on what I call this "tone producer" should be an Ab Concert. The third test found in the book "The Art of Saxophone Playing" is to play a low A and have someone else (without you knowing when) flip the neck octave key open and then shut. If the note jumps to the high A and comes smoothly back down after a slight hesitation, then the embouchure pressure is about right. If the note goes to a flat and flabby sounding high A, the embouchure is too loose. If the note jumps to high A and tends to stay high even when the octave key is closed, that means the embouchure is too tight.
An exercise that I have used with my students who have learned the bad habit of "biting" to get the high register is to have them play a low G in tune watching the meter on their tuner. Then I have them "lip" the note about 20 to 25 cents flat by dropping the jaw and chin and opening the teeth. When this is accomplished, I ask them to bring the note back up to pitch (in tune) with just the lip and muscles around the mouth while keeping the teeth apart and the jaw pulling down. When this sensation of not biting starts to be comfortable, I have them play long tones---low at first and then gradually higher.
One more concept that might help. Play low C f with your best tone. Then play middle C with exactly the same embouchure and feeling in the throat, just a bit less air that goes faster. Then play the high C with exactly the same embouchure and throat (that the low C required), again with a bit less air at an even faster speed. In other words try to play the normal (not altissimo) register of the sax with the same embouchure setting and relaxed throat from low Bb to high F. Once you have learned to do this you will be amazed at how easy and natural it really is. Please note that the airstream, shape of the oral cavity, and positon of the tongue do change as the notes go higher or lower, but the embouchure and relaxed, open throat do not.
If your braces are sharp and uncomfortable you might try using EZO brand denture cushions to cover the braces and lower teeth. You just cut the material to an oval shape the size you need, soak it in hot water for about 30 seconds to soften the wax, and then form the "patch" over the teeth/braces where it will serve as a cushion for the bottom lip. Good luck. I hope some of my ideas are useful to you.
As I was writing my "essay" you posted some more information that helps to see the big picture. Check that you are taking enough mouthpiece in the mouth. For most players on the alto sax the top teeth are approximately 5/8'" back from the tip. Also try to let the air do most of the work by doing what I call "playing on the airstream". The easiest way to understand this is to play a high G on your sax, and then with a loud "air whistle" produce the same pitch using fast cold air. Then play the high G again with exactly the same kind of air that the "air whistle" required.
You may know these things already. I'm just trying to cover all the bases for you and anyone else reading this thread who has the same problems with the high notes. Again, good luck.
For the first thing you mentioned both A's were close. I'm noticing the serious intonation problems begin with C3 and get worse the higher I get. I didn't understand what you were trying to say in the second paragraph. "Opening the teeth" and "keeping the teeth apart". I begin to wonder if my entire embouchure is incorrect and what I read about and people tell me about is for a correct embouchure, one in which I do not have. The exercise mentioned in the third paragraph is a big problem for me. That top C just doesn't want to speak without me biting. Also, in the last exercise mentioned, what is an air whistle?
I appreciate all the responses from everyone.

Answer:
Originally Posted by ZiCheng Hi Hakuani,
what do you think would be a stiff reed for a beginner? I have a similarly closed mouthpiece, a yamaha custom 4c, which has an opening a tiny bit smaller than a Selmer C* and has a rather angular (square?) chamber. I'm using 2 1/2 ricos, and I wonder if I should move on to a 3. I don't really have trouble with my set-up at either side of the instrument's range.
Sure, try it.
I'm playing a stock 5c on my bari until my RPC is finished.
Reeds are cheap--not like horns and mouthpieces;)

Answer:
This may help:


Answer:
Originally Posted by TheSleeper I didn't understand what you were trying to say in the second paragraph. "Opening the teeth" and "keeping the teeth apart". This is easy. Think OO when playing low G and then go to WAH and have the jaw and teeth pull down away from the lip and the reed. This is exactly like the first wave when we play with a vibrato.
Originally Posted by thesleeper I begin to wonder if my entire embouchure is incorrect and what I read about and people tell me about is for a correct embouchure, one in which I do not have. Your entire embouchure is not incorrect! The only adjustment you need to learn is the sensation of chin and jaw pulling down slightly away from the reed instead of pushing up forcing the teeth into the bottom lip.
Originally Posted by thesleeper The exercise mentioned in the third paragraph is a big problem for me. That top C just doesn't want to speak without me biting. What have you had now, five minutes to try it before posting your reply? Of course it will not happen instantly. Work on these ideas 15 minutes a day for a week and you will see results.
Originally Posted by thesleeper Also, in the last exercise mentioned, what is an air whistle? That is also very easy. Do a regular whistle blowing out and then aim the air more between the teeth to get rid of the "whistle" sound and just have the air sound. Good luck.
Remember your playing habits did not form overnight so it is not reasonable to think you are going to change them in that amount of time. Be patient, but persistent, and whatever you do---don't get discouraged and give up. Everything you are doing with your embouchure I did in spades when I was learning to play on my Sears and Roebuck "Silvertone" saxophone way back when. I changed my embouchure and so can you. Moses says "Quit typing, and start practicing your long tones".:) :) :) :) :)
Just saw your picture of your embouchure. Try a bit more OO muscles pushing in at the corners while feeling the jaw and chin pull down. The mouthpiece placement, angle, etc. look good to me.

Answer:
I haven't read all the advice in this thread, which is probably very good, but it occurs to me that Vandoren #3 traditional reeds are pretty stiff. I believe a Vandoren 3 is at least as hard as a Rico Royal 3.5.
Biting is sometimes a consequence of using too hard a reed. Someone with a strong embouchre can play a hard reed properly, but maybe you have not developed that kind of strength yet.
Good luck!