Question:
Artley flutes
Which ones would be pro or acceptable for you pro players or do any of you guys use the good ones for giging.I'm looking at a 9.0 and another solid silver model, both from the 60's.

Answer:
Pass on that one. The Artleys were just regular flutes and still are although the recent ones are actually Armstrongs. The Wilkins model was the best they had but none had a very good headjoint. The 9-O is OK, but don't go too high. I would sell one in nice condition with good pads in the $300 range.
The company was owned by Conn from about 1960.

Answer:
Originally Posted by bruce bailey Pass on that one. The Artleys were just regular flutes and still are although the recent ones are actually Armstrongs. The Wilkins model was the best they had but none had a very good headjoint. The 9-O is OK, but don't go too high. I would sell one in nice condition with good pads in the $300 range.
The company was owned by Conn from about 1960.
Interesting, I originally owned a 9-0, but then found a new 6-0 in a pawn shop, very cheap. At that time (30yrs ago) I didn't see a point to keeping both, so I sold one, and the first person to come by wanted the 9-0, so I've been playing the 6-0 (same all-silver, but closed-hole) ever since.
I've picked up other flutes & played them, but have never found one that sounded as good. Now, I admit, I haven't tried many of the mult-thousands of dollars ones, but the times I did, I couldn't grasp what made them 4-10x the price of what mine would be new today.
I love the fat, warm tone I get, and have been complimented by many people over the years, often mistakenly assuming I've been classically trained (ha)....... My first influences on flute were Johnny Almond (of the late 60s Mark-Almond Band), Roland Kirk, Herbie Mann, Paul Horn, Tull, Tim Weisberg, Jeremy Steig, Sonny Fortune, Joe Farrell, Hubert Laws, etc. etc....and I'm not a big fan of the very bright, more piercing tone of say Nelson Rangell, Nestor Torres, & Dave Valentin (altho I like their playing).
Anyway, my attitude toward flute was set in my first couple years of playing, when I saw a cat in a bar in Chicago who was a monstrous player, with a tone like Hubert Laws. When I asked him what flute he was using, he showed me a STUDENT BUNDY, nickel, closed-hole, axe!
I knew from then on, with the flute, it's far less the axe than the player....
I've picked up a few off Ebay to use as backup, had a couple Wilkins, but was not so impressed (thought I would be), and in fact, have a student Artley I use around the house, that if I had to, I'd feel fine playing on a gig. I think it all comes down to our own individual anatomy, lips/mouth/hands/lungs, etc., as well as just the general comfort level, and not simply the flute.
Bruce, if you are very knowledgeable/experienced on flute, or any others here who's main axe might be flute, could you tell me what qualitatively you actually experience in a mega-thousand dollar flute over a lesser, solid silver one.
Plus, unfortunately, it's very difficult to find any of the top of the line models, made in closed-hole, offset G. I know they can all make you one, but it would be nice to be able to try some out, and most stores never have them....

Answer:
My wife plays a lovely Artley O-15 open-holed model made in Elkhart. I bought it for her new in 1982 when I was 17 and she was 16. She was very discouraged because the old cheap nickel plated flute her parents bought her just wouldn't play well at all. That new silver-plate baby cost me lots of paychecks working at the diesel truck repair shop after school.
She still plays the thing today. I've bought her a better horn but she likes the Artley. And it still sounds pretty good. Too good to be an Artley, in my opinion. But I think there may be part of our souls in that old horn.

Answer:
Originally Posted by Enviroguy My wife plays a lovely Artley O-15 open-holed model made in Elkhart. I bought it for her new in 1982 when I was 17 and she was 16. She was very discouraged because the old cheap nickel plated flute her parents bought her just wouldn't play well at all. That new silver-plate baby cost me lots of paychecks working at the diesel truck repair shop after school.
She still plays the thing today. I've bought her a better horn but she likes the Artley. And it still sounds pretty good. Too good to be an Artley, in my opinion. But I think there may be part of our souls in that old horn.
"Too good to be an Artley" sounds like a perfect description of my old 6-0, as well!!! Maybe, like so many other things, there just are some surprising ly good playing axes that don't fit the "norm"...
We both know there are plenty of old Bueschers that blow away many much newer, more expensive horns. And I've played some of those $20 Rico Royal mouthpieces (designed by A. Brillhart, by the way), and gotten many compliments on my sound (even some offhanded ones, like "how do you get so good a sound from that piece of sh*t mouthpiece?")...
So, hey, in the end, it's what a longtime pro player, a teacher I had at Berklee (the one semester I attended) told me: "WHATEVER WORKS"!

Answer:
Originally Posted by Saxnflut could you tell me what qualitatively you actually experience in a mega-thousand dollar flute over a lesser, solid silver one.
Plus, unfortunately, it's very difficult to find any of the top of the line models, made in closed-hole, offset G. I know they can all make you one, but it would be nice to be able to try some out, and most stores never have them....
I'm not originally a flute player, but I'll take a shot at your question. In the summer of 2005 I played dozens of high-end flutes at the NFA convention. My flute at the time was Yamaha 581H, which is an excellent flute, especially for it's price range. I was curious about handmade flutes but I wasn't in a position to buy one at that time. My impression of the advantage of the handmade flutes over mine was mainly in the smoothness and efficiency of the mechanism. I found that the sound wasn't necessarily any better than my Yamaha. The sound comes mostly from the headjoint, so the flute itself has less of an impact on the tone, and to a certain extent the response. The sound and response of the flutes I tried varied a lot, depending on the headjoint.
Early this year I was able to buy a top-end flute, and I bought a Powell custom. Again, the mechanism was fantastic, but the sound itself wasn't a lot different from my Yamaha. After I had played the Powell for a while I was able to adjust more to the subleties of the instrument, and I've become spoiled. When I play the Yamaha, it seems clunkier in the keywork, and seems to need more finger pressure. The Powell has a very light touch (with Straubinger pads), and that is pretty wonderful when you get used to it. After getting used to the headjoint, I'm able to get a bigger and richer tone on the Powell.
The point is, the improvements of the handmade model are not necessarily obvious on first impression (except for the smoothness of the mechanism). I think the high price of the top instruments comes from all the labor needed to make their flutes to such close tolerances. Over a period of time, I've gotten used to playing the better quality flute and appreciate it more all the time.
This does not mean that a person can't get tremendous results on a lower priced instrument, especially as respects tone.
As for the high-end closed-hole, offset-G flutes, you're probably right. They are available by special order, but not usually stocked for trial, because of the fixation on open-holed, inline-G flutes that is so prevalent in the U.S.

Answer:
"...I've picked up other flutes & played them, but have never found one that sounded as good...." and similar comments.
I agree with Bruce - "The Artleys were just regular flutes and still are ... none had a very good headjoint".
However there is always the exception. I have worked on the odd Artley that was inexplicably far better. Perhaps one in a couple of hundred. Go figure.
If you have one of those, treasure it, and don't use it to generalise about other Artleys!!!

Answer:
Originally Posted by Gordon (NZ) "...I've picked up other flutes & played them, but have never found one that sounded as good...." and similar comments.
I agree with Bruce - "The Artleys were just regular flutes and still are ... none had a very good headjoint".
However there is always the exception. I have worked on the odd Artley that was inexplicably far better. Perhaps one in a couple of hundred. Go figure.
If you have one of those, treasure it, and don't use it to generalise about other Artleys!!!
I gotcha Gordon, you're probably right, that's why even the Wilkins ones I've tried weren't all that hot.....
And Saxfreak, what you wrote makes a lot of sense too. If I spent a good bit of time with a hand-made one, I would probably come to really appreciate the greater smoothness....

Answer:
Originally Posted by saxfreak I think the high price of the top instruments comes from all the labor needed to make their flutes to such close tolerances. Over a period of time, I've gotten used to playing the better quality flute and appreciate it more all the time.
This does not mean that a person can't get tremendous results on a lower priced instrument, especially as respects tone.
From an economic perspective, most of the price of a hand made flute is simply the fact that is hand made, which takes more time and effort and $$$ to build. Hand built may be - but is not necessarily - built better or to higher tolerances. Even if a hand built flute is built to the same or even worse tolerances than a factory production flute, it would still cost more simply by virtue of being hand built.
I've played a few good hand built flutes and my experience is the exact opposite of yours. Seems to me the main difference is in the tone and response - the cut of the headjoint. For example, 3 of my fellow flutists have Powell, Haynes and Lunn and I don't find their keywork to be any smoother, faster, or lighter than my Jupiter 1011, or a Yamaha 600 series, or even my old Gemeinhardt 3SB.
That said, overall I find the differences between a hand built flute and a good factory production flute to be small. The former can be a beautifully crafted work of art in addition to being a flute, which can provide satisfaction and pride of ownership. But in practical terms of how it actually plays and sounds, the differences are small and tend to be overrated. In other words, a factory production flute can give one just as good an instrument in every practical way that matters, while costing a fraction of the price.

Answer:
Hear, hear!

Answer:
The Wilkins may be the exception. I had one come in on trade and resold it as is to a doubler who put a nice head on it and it really sings. Trouble with the old Artleys is the heads are just too wide and can't be undercut. With all of the Yamahas, Emersons and even Jupiters on the market, there are much better choices.

Answer:
And the T.S ogilve model Bass Flutes by Artley. These are very, very fine Bass flutes.

Answer:
flutes and money
Originally Posted by saxfreak I think the high price of the top instruments comes from all the labor needed to make their flutes to such close tolerances. Over a period of time, I've gotten used to playing the better quality flute and appreciate it more all the time.
This does not mean that a person can't get tremendous results on a lower priced instrument, especially as respects tone.
Well said, saxfreak. A great flutist will sound great on anything, but a better flute allows the player to play more easily.There are plenty of flutists whose money supply exceeds their flute chops (and great players pushing nickel Bundy's beyond their limits!).
I routinely work on handmade flutes and I will say that I find them much more enjoyable to play(and to repair) than the entry level flutes that we also deal with. There is what is commonly called a diminishing level of returns. It takes a lot more money to make something a little better, and therfore a LOT more money to make something substantially better.
That being said, my first flute was an Artley that I picked up used in the late 70's. The guy that bought it from me is still using it. They are solid, if nothing else. I have had several Artley Wilkins cross my bench. They are a nice copy of a Haynes but I did not find them exceptional by today's standards. Many of the modern entry level flutes have been blessed by technology trickling down from the high-end flutes.
Two of my clients have Ogilvie basses. It is my understanding that these were hand made by Mr. Ogilvie, originally for use in Henry Mancini's orchestra, so I wouldn't consider them "production" Artleys.

Answer:
".... There is what is commonly called a diminishing level of returns. It takes a lot more money to make something a little better, and therefore a LOT more money to make something substantially better..."
I agree, but I think there is far more to it than that...
Let's take some skeptical sideways glances:
Thought 1:
Top in the mind of any manufacturing company is profit.
With modern equipment, it would cost no more to mass produce Yamaha (professional) EC cut heads than the (student flute) CY cut head. So why don't they do it? My guess is that if they did so, then a student flute (serviced so that it had level tone holes!) would be so little different from a professional flute, that the sales of the megubuck flutes would fall.
The manufacturer simply needs something to "wow" about to fool buyers into paying more.
Thought 2. What exactly does hand made mean.
It is likely to mean soldered tone holes, which make neglible difference, and may actually make a flute worse than a rolled tone hole equivalent if undercutting is incorporated into the design of the drawing dies. A whole lot more expense in the manufacture, but for what?
It is likely to mean white gold springs. So what! A GOOD spring design in stainless steel performs every bit as well. It just needs an engineer rather than a silversmith to work on it.
It may mean hand-shaping of certain parts of keys. That does not make a flute play better. Not that for either type, parts of the keys are likely to be set up in jigs before HAND soldering.
I assume ALL flutes are HAND assembled. And Yamaha has demonstrated that they can achieve high precision, reliable, long-lasting bearings in their student flutes - cheaply!
Hand made means no adjusting screws. Without going into all the technical detail, for something that needs high precision adjustment and reliability, this is the height of precision engineering absurdity.
Thought 3.
As I understand it, gold is an easier material to work than silver, and silver is easier than cupronickel.
Yet a gold head costs FAR more than the extra value of the gold, over a silver head, and a silver head costs FAR more than the extra value of silver over a cupronickel head.
Why? Sure, a little more care may be put into it to make sure the cut is not a dud, but that in no way accounts for the rip-off prices. The reason is because that between the manufacturers, dealers and buyers, they have set up a regime where crazy flute players are prepared to pay this much. It is almost all profit driven. The aim is to sell gold and silver for far more than what they are worth.
I was one of these suckers. I have a hand made Muramatsu. I have played many customers' NON-handmade Muramatsus, and find no significant difference. The main difference is that mine is a thorough pain to work on, because of the lack of adjusting screws.
Now a decent head CUT, that SUITS the player... that makes a huge difference. Mine (both the original Muramatsu, and the Lehner I bought a while back) actually do not suit me, compared with some others I get to try.
But it must be possible these days days, to do superb and consistent cutting of heads almost entirely BY MACHINE.
Alternatively, wonderful cuts could be moulded with incredible precision. Liquidmetal (trademark) can be moulded almost as easily as plastic, and comes out of the mould with such precision that moulded scalpel blades do not need sharpening.
Really, with "handmade", I think we are just being taken for a ride, simply because so many people CAN be.
Would people pay hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for a "handmade" Bic lighter? Or hundreds of thousands for a hand made computer printer, or calculator.
It is almost that silly!

Answer:
Great points Gordon!
I don't feel so odd now, having tried some hand-made flutes, and wondered what the big deal (& even bigger prices) was.......;)
I have always wondered just how much difference a solid gold flute would sound.....I envision it being mellower, maybe warmer, yeah?
Is it ever possible to find even a used one at a somewhat manageable price?

Answer:
Originally Posted by Bootman And the T.S ogilve model Bass Flutes by Artley. These are very, very fine Bass flutes. Is that the bass flute you're playing on the audio clips from your web site? It has a unique edge to the tone, interesting sound. Is that its natural tone, or was it altered by the microphones or other processing?

Answer:
Originally Posted by Gordon (NZ) With modern equipment, it would cost no more to mass produce Yamaha (professional) EC cut heads than the (student flute) CY cut head. So why don't they do it? My guess is that if they did so, then a student flute (serviced so that it had level tone holes!) would be so little different from a professional flute, that the sales of the megubuck flutes would fall.
As you know I agree entirely! But regarding this one point - I can see why Yamaha (or any other company) offers different headjoints. Each is cut differently to suit different players with different preferences. Student headjoints usually have lower risers, less resistance, are easier blowing, etc. "Pro" headjoints may offer higher resistance, greater projection, more tone colors, dynamics, etc. but require better technique to blow. And beyond that, there is personal player preferences.
But there's no reason I can imagine why these different headjoints should cost *significantly* different. Perhaps the pro headjoints are cut slower with greater precision and get more hand finishing, QA and touchup than student headjoints. I can see how that might make them cost twice as much - but ten or twenty times as much?!?! Not in a factory production headjoint. Most of the huge price differences we see are likely due to supply and demand, not to production or material costs.