Question:
Do you view the sop as the only "timeless" sax?
I'm guessing most of us agree that a soprano is "timeless" in that it works for traditional jazz (like Bechet) right up to modern jazz (Lacy, Trane, etc).
If you fish deep enough into the earliest recordings you'll find ALL saxes represented, from sop right up to bass. I know this is true, but when I hear an alto, it just doesn't SOUND to me like traditional jazz. OK, I can hear Johnny Hodges, but I just don't hear an alto as sounding "right" in any setting that PREdates the Rabbit.
Ditto with a tenor, regarding trying to hear it as sounding "right" in a setting older than Coleman Hawkins.
Ditto bari, regarding trying to hear it as fitting well in a sound that predates Harry Carney.
Thus, to my ear, only the sop works in ALL settings including Dixieland/Traditional/New Orleans. Does anyone else hear the sop as the only sax that really sounds "right" in a traditional setting?

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Jive: Most of the saxophones were played in early jazz. Besides Bechet and Buster Bailey on soprano, I have some 1920's recordings of the Sam Morgan band from 'Nawlins and that group was heavily balanced toward saxophones, altos and tenors. Stomp Evans played alto alongside Johnny Dodds and Jelly Roll Morton (check out Morton's WILD MAN BLUES for some VERY hot alto by Evans). Jimmie Noone's recordings were usually him on clarinet with hot alto players. Coleman Hawkins was HOT on tenor (and bass sax) in the mid-to-late '20's with Fletcher Henderson and Red McKenzie. That's pretty close to the beginnings of recorded jazz (Kid Ory being the first to record jazz, I believe, in 1919).
Today, a band from Seattle (Uptown Lowdown) plays 1920's style and their altoist (who doubles bass sax), Paul Woltz is among the hottest of the hot alto players. A guy who played all the instruments in a trad band and who I've played with many times (recently relocated to Virginia, Larry Wright) is especially hot on alto and tenor. You'd think Hawkins came back when you hear LW play. The band I play in almost always had a four-man front line (cornet, trombone, clarinet/sop and alto/bass sax; Paul Woltz was the first one until he moved to Seattle) and I switch among sop, alto, and clarinet in a three-man front line. The alto and tenor certainly sound right to my ears - and I'm a TOTAL trad-jazz guy.
And of course, the C-mel was all over early jazz. Best known was Frank "Tram" Trumbauer who recorded extensively with Bix Beiderbecke and Whiteman.
Only two saxophones that I know of were not prominent in early jazz - sopranino and baritone, but many band photos from that era show baritone saxophones among the horns displayed.
As much as I love soprano (my first saxophone) I must disagree that soprano is the only one that transcends all jazz styles. DAVE

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Originally Posted by Dave Dolson Jive: Most of the saxophones were played in early jazz.
I'm aware of that and even said that in my original note.
Originally Posted by Dave Dolson . . . I have some 1920's recordings of the Sam Morgan band from 'Nawlins and that group was heavily balanced toward saxophones, altos and tenors.
Ironically, it was those very recordings I was thinking of when I acknowledged that pretty much all saxes were used at the very beginning! (I'm guessing you may have read, as I have, that the Sam Morgan sides, though recorded in 1927, are believed to reflect an earlier sound, in part because unlike Sidney, King Oliver, Louis, etc, Sam Morgan did not leave New Orleans and is believed to not have "modernized" his sound.)
Originally Posted by Dave Dolson Stomp Evans played alto alongside Johnny Dodds and Jelly Roll Morton (check out Morton's WILD MAN BLUES for some VERY hot alto by Evans).
I just listened to it--fun! Thanks for the tip. At first, the tone sounded so different from modern alto that for a second I thought he was playing clarinet! Then, interestingly, when Dodds came in on clarinet, he (Dodds) was playing LOWER than the alto. I don't know the exact range of the clarinet. Can it go as low as the bottom register of an alto? (I know it has a wider range than the standard sax's 2 1/2+ octaves.)
Originally Posted by Dave Dolson . . . Coleman Hawkins was HOT on tenor (and bass sax) in the mid-to-late '20's with Fletcher Henderson and Red McKenzie. That's pretty close to the beginnings of recorded jazz (Kid Ory being the first to record jazz, I believe, in 1919).
I'm not familiar with the McKenzie band. The Henderson band sounds more modern to me than, say Sam Morgan or King Oliver even though the recording dates absolutely overlap, I admit. Maybe it's because Fletcher had more arranged stuff, different instrumentation, and was moving faster away from collective improvisation toward soloing. Once those changes were made, the music was already halfway between original 'Nawlins jazz and the early Ellington band, at least to my ear. Thus, while I know Hawk was playing near the beginning, I don't hear his music as being as far back in time stylistically. Do you know of a Hawkins recording where there's a real old-fashioned 'Nawlins sound? (I confess to not be familiar with Hawk's early recordings.) By the way, is there a reason your stated "first to record" is Kid Ory in 1919 and not the usually stated 1917 sides of the ODJB?
Originally Posted by Dave Dolson . . . The band I play in almost always had a four-man front line (cornet, trombone, clarinet/sop and alto/bass sax . . .The alto and tenor certainly sound right to my ears - and I'm a TOTAL trad-jazz guy.
So I guess it does happen! (So far, I've only heard traditional jazz very little in person--in New Orleans itself, here in Portland, but also oddly in Paris. The few band's I'd heard all had clarinet and/or sop, but that was it woodwindwise. Maybe that's why I've found the sound of other saxes a bit outside of my stereotype of the traditional music.
Originally Posted by Dave Dolson And of course, the C-mel was all over early jazz. Best known was Frank "Tram" Trumbauer who recorded extensively with Bix Beiderbecke and Whiteman.
As with Hawk, the little Trubauer I've heard (his band with Bix) sounded more modern to me than Papa Celestin, Sam Morgan, etc. Nonetheless, it's clear the use of these other horns was extensive enough so that, as you say, they do fit with the really early music even though it's mostly not what I've been exposed to when hearing live music. Thanks, Dave.

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There are no timeless instruments...except for maybe the drums...

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Jive: Ory's Sunshine Band was the first Black jazz band to record. I shoulda been more specific on that issue. Now that I think about it, James Reese Europe's military band was recorded right after WWI - not sure about the dates, but at any rate, that was more of an organized military band with a jazz influence rather than a true small-ensemble improvising jazz band.
I never cared for the ODJB . . . it seemed to me to be in the same insulting category as Black-face shtick. Very affected . . . a caricature of New Orleans' based jazz. It WAS popular, though and opened up the sound of jazz for many folks.
I agree that Henderson's bands of the mid-20's were more organized than the free-wheeling small-ensemble N.I. jazz bands. Maybe one steeped in Hawkins' lore can be more specific, but those Henderson recordings were the first I knew of with Hawkins on tenor and bass. No, it sure wasn't N.O. style, but it was the jazz of that era and Hawkins was HOT.
If you have a source for Morton (like , you can probably look up HELLO LOLA, by Red McKenzie and give that a listen. That tune has been mentioned here before and it is worth the effort to hear a hot tenor from the '20's.
Stomp Evans playing in those Morton recordings was very Weidoft-ty, as were many of the era's saxophone players.
Tram's work with Bix had a polished sound, I agree. But Bix and Tram used to listen to and jam with the Black bands in Chicago (namely Oliver) and their recordings were made at about the same time as Bechet and Clarence Williams, the Hot Five/Seven, and Morton's Red Hot Peppers. Different styles for sure, but of the same era and certainly credible.
The alto saxophone goes lower than a Bb soprano clarinet, but only one-half step. The clarinet sounds D below middle C on the piano. The alto sounds Db below middle C. Johnny Dodds had an unusual clarinet tone alright, but I can clearly hear the differences between Dodds' clarinet and Evans' alto. What was equally interesting in that recording was Dodds mimicing Morton's piano notes.
After the end of the Creole Jazz Band, Oliver recorded several sides in New York which are excellent. Much closer to Henderson's sound in that he had two or three reeds and it was obviously more organized than his Creole Band or Morton's Red Hot Peppers.
Jabbo Smith was another band leader who used saxophones in the 1920's. See if you can find any of his recordings (LINA BLUES, MICHIGANDER BLUES, and BAND BOX STOMP come to mind) and listen for the alto.
Speaking of those who never left N.O., include Goerge Lewis in that. Oh, I know he left N.O. to play, but his style never left town. His band was about as authentic as it could get in the modern era. I saw him in concert when I was 16. But, Lewis didn't use a saxophone. It was always his Albert-System clarinet and the more traditional instrumentation of cornet, t-bone, and reed.
For current trad bands, HOT ANTIC (Nimes, France) uses two saxophones (alto and tenor) and those guys are sensational players in the old-style. Charquet and Co. from France was another. And one of my all-time favorites, the Portena Jazz Band from Buenos Aires had larger saxophones in their ensembles.
The alto fits perfectly in trad jazz (as does bass, soprano and tenor, when the tenor is played right). It is a matter of style. DAVE

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Originally Posted by Dave Dolson James Reese Europe's military band was recorded right after WWI - not sure about the dates, but at any rate, that was more of an organized military band with a jazz influence rather than a true small-ensemble improvising jazz band.
March of 1919 (though there may have been other dates)
Originally Posted by Dave Dolson I never cared for the ODJB . . . it seemed to me to be in the same insulting category as Black-face shtick. Very affected . . . a caricature of New Orleans' based jazz. It WAS popular, though and opened up the sound of jazz for many folks.
When you mentioned the Ory recording (which I still haven't yet heard) as "first" I was just curious, guessing (correctly) that you were well aware of the earlier ODJB recording. In any case, I concur with all your comments on the subject and now understand why you listed Ory as first.
Originally Posted by Dave Dolson Stomp Evans playing in those Morton recordings was very Weidoft-ty, as were many of the era's saxophone players.
Sorry--I don't know what that ("Weidoft-ty") means.
Originally Posted by Dave Dolson The alto saxophone goes lower than a Bb soprano clarinet, but only one-half step. The clarinet sounds D below middle C on the piano. The alto sounds Db below middle C. Johnny Dodds had an unusual clarinet tone alright, but I can clearly hear the differences between Dodds' clarinet and Evans' alto.
Thanks for clarifying the difference in the bottom range. In a sense, doesn't this mean there's at least as much overlap between alto and clarinet as there is between clarinet and soprano? That's interesting, and surprises me. I'd always guessed (incorrectly, it appears) that Sidney partly used the sop as a way to "cover the clarinety part with a saxophone [whose tone he preferred]." I guess not. Hmm . . . .
Originally Posted by Dave Dolson The alto fits perfectly in trad jazz (as does bass, soprano and tenor, when the tenor is played right). It is a matter of style. DAVE Yes--I think you've made your point well. (Thanks also for the other leads tjat I'm not directly commenting on here.)
All this has got me thinking--if someone playing the sax wants to learn the traditional music, are there WRITTEN aids that can be used (in addition, of course, to the obvious tool of listening to the CDs a million times)?
I've been playing sop now for a year and a half, I've gotten through the 4 basic Rubank books and am currently working in the "Selected Studies" Rubank book. (I'm mostly retired, so I have time.) In terms of modern jazz, my teacher also has me working in the "Advanced Jazz Conecption for Saxophone by Lennie Niehaus, the John Coltrane Solos book, and, the Aebersold Blues in All Keys book. I'm learning, it's fun, I love the modern stuff, but the old sound keeps calling to me as well. Unlike with the modern stuff, I don't have a clue where to go to get learning materials (again, other than the CDs, of course). Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks again, Dave!

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Jive: Rudy Weidoft was a saxophone virtuoso in those years and many jazzers copied his style - a very staccato, rapid-tonguing technique that is incredible. Well, you heard Stomp Evans do it with Morton and Dodds. Tram was another one to throw those licks into a tune (TUMBOLOGY comes to mind).
That's what I meant by Weidoft-ty - done in Weidoft's style. A devotee of Weidoft today is Ted Helgvic (not sure of that spelling - Ithink it is incorrect). You can find his recordings advertised in SAXOPHONE JOURNAL.
Kid Ory's Sunshine Band recorded ORY'S CREOLE TROMBONE in 1919 (this is all from memory, I haven't vetted the info in a long time), generally credited as the first Black band to record jazz.
I know of no written music about original jazz, except for the popular tunes of the day on sheet music. It well may exist, I just haven't seen it. Of course, I've been playing it for 50 years now (no, I haven't "progressed" and I'm okay with that). I rely on my ear, CDs, LPs, 78's, cassettes, my sheet-music collection, and the hundreds of lead sheets and chord charts I've acquired/collected over the years.
There are a few band-charts around, meaning charts written for multiple instruments in the early style, also known as HOT jazz or hot-dance (again, 1920's) played today by The Royal Society Jazz Orchestra of Gilroy, CA and Vince Giordano's various N.Y.-based bands. But, I have no clue as to how to buy them or where one could obtain a copy.
A lot of my knowledge comes from playing the music and discussing the finer points with others who are similarly oriented. For instance, there is an on-going argument over the chords in Clarence Williams' BABY WON'T YOU PLEASE COME HOME. I think it is the seventh measure where Williams plays a C-major chord where most modern bands now play a G7 chord through the whole phrase. As I understand it, the sheet music, published a long time after the tune was introduced, shows a G7, but the recordings from before the sheet music's date have it as a C-maj. Little stuff like that keeps one on his toes. DAVE

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Originally Posted by Dave Dolson Jive: Rudy Weidoft was a saxophone virtuoso in those years and many jazzers copied his style - a very staccato, rapid-tonguing technique that is incredible.
Thanks for the clarification.
Originally Posted by Dave Dolson I know of no written music about original jazz, except for the popular tunes of the day on sheet music.
Ouch. While I believe that for all kinds of jazz, listening comes first, the Aebersold stuff and the various solo transcriptions, etc. have really sped up the learning process for me. At least I know now that if I want to get into the traditional stuff, it's all about a CD, a pencil, some music paper, my ear, and a lot of patience! When I was young, I used to do this with Wynton Kelly solos on the piano because I couldn't find transcriptions. These days, being able to buy a book of Coltrane solos that would have taken years to put together has spoiled me. . . .
Originally Posted by Dave Dolson . . . there is an on-going argument over the chords in Clarence Williams' BABY WON'T YOU PLEASE COME HOME. I think it is the seventh measure where Williams plays a C-major chord where most modern bands now play a G7 chord through the whole phrase. As I understand it, the sheet music, published a long time after the tune was introduced, shows a G7, but the recordings from before the sheet music's date have it as a C-maj. Little stuff like that keeps one on his toes. DAVE
I can tell you that most modern jazz players expect mistakes in the written music and therefore rarely take the sheet music as an authority. They typically go with the recording unless they come up with something stronger, in which case they generally use their own substitutions. If I get to hear this Clarence Williams cut, I'll try to remember your comments. (That said, I'm guessing that if "there is an on-going argument" it means that one change probably doesn't sound vastly better than the other. If it were otherwise, I'd have to think the argument would end.) Thanks again for the information!

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I think I misspelled Wiedoeft. DAVE

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The best book about the early years of jazz (and the music's origins) is surely Gunther Schuller's "Early Jazz," which I'm sure most around here are familiar with. He deftly explains the African roots of the music and how African rhythmic ideas blended with Western song forms. He also discusses all the early titans, giving extensive attention to Armstrong--whom he rightly considers the first true genius in the music--and Jelly Roll Morton. The book is replete with musical examples; Schuller's profound knowledge of the music make the book indispensible for understanding jazz. Incidentally, while he points out some of the failings of the ODJB, Schuller still considers the group of major importance, and would disagree that it was a caricature of New Orleans jazz, or somehow not legitimate. Anyway, I just re-read it; it's a book that never grows old.

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Originally Posted by Paul B The best book about the early years of jazz (and the music's origins) is surely Gunther Schuller's "Early Jazz," which I'm sure most around here are familiar with. . . .
By coincidence, I'm currently halfway through the Armstrong chapter and I'm lucky enough to have almost every cut Schuller talks about. With the aid of the CDs, it's a great read but boy does it take time (albeit very enjoyable time)!! Without the aid of the music, I think it would not be of much use, though it certainly would take far less time to read through.
I agree--it's a terrific book!

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I don't have all the music he talks about--though it would seem a worth endeavor to try to track it all down--but anybody who can read music can still follow the argument via the extensive notated examples. It would be really tough, I imagine, for a non-musician to grasp much of the book, but it would still be worth their try.

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Originally Posted by Paul B I don't have all the music he talks about--though it would seem a worth endeavor to try to track it all down--but anybody who can read music can still follow the argument via the extensive notated examples. It would be really tough, I imagine, for a non-musician to grasp much of the book, but it would still be worth their try.
"Proper" (also called "Properbox") has a 4-CD set called "King Louis" that has virtually all the Armstrong cuts discussed in the Armstrong chapter--at least the 1st half I've gone through. It'a a great way to get the essential Armstrong cuts without spending much or having to go to 10 different resources in the process. I highly recommend it.
I agree the Schuller book would be tough sleddin' for a non-player but it's really worth it for the rest of us!

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Thanks for the nod on that jivemutha. I may well pick that set up and re-read the chapter on Armstrong....