Question:
The DuMars Model saxophone...
This isn't really a product announcement yet -- it's more of a pre-announcement to get feedback and ideas.
I have been working with Jinyin again since they have had some positive turnover, and finally have a representative I can effectively work with in English. I am going to be picking up where I left off, helping them improve the quality of their saxes, as well as producing a special model for me. This is a dream come true, as I can finally take all of the ideas I have had rattling around in my mind and put them to work. My design is pretty radical, especially in comparison to other horns on the market. I am taking a "back to the future" approach. The result will be a modern "Artist Model" unlike any other saxophone.
Here are the highlights:
* solid sterling silver neck and bell
* pearl side keys
* a special bell brace design
* engraved by me from top to bottom
* simplified keywork a lot like the mid-run Selmer Balanced Action, except offset for better ergonomics -- including the omission of the high F# key for better air column dynamics
* my own screw-in resonator system kind of like Buescher "snap-in" pads, but more secure and less prone to rattling
The bore is going to be reminiscent of the Mark VI, and once I have a sample together, I'll undoubtedly be refining it a lot. I welcome any input my fellow SOTWers might have. I am really excited about this, and hope to have something available by next Summer.

Answer:
sounds promising if the manufactor follows thru and marketing does its thing with your ideas and finally if sales are good enough to warrant a production run of more than a few hundred. yes by all means since Taiwan has the tenacity and means plus experience now to do it and if Unison you know what model and Cannonball are any indication of what may happen.GOGOGO. my only question in my cynical old age is why the Selmer mark 6 bore? its been done by the French, Japanese, German,Chinese and back again? is that all there is for tone and sound that the old parameters are still used for reference? why not an American sound again or a variation of it? i suppose i'm being too harsh since there is no mock up or demo yet to describe and change things and what direction to move forward with? Good Luck and may you find the magical fortune cookie.

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I kind of like dolphyo's idea on the bore size, why not try something different?
Anyway, I would probably consider the purchase of one of those, I love your work. Would the engraving be the same on each, or unique to each one?
Martin Williams

Answer:
Thanks for the input, both of you! I agree that the right bore is very, very important. I personally like the Conn bore quite a bit, and in the end, I'll probably gravitate more toward that sound. The trick is keeping the intonation and internals solid. I want all of the close-tone multiphonics to speak easily, and have an altissimo that really pops. The Mark VI (mid-run) had a really consistent harmonic balance that I like. I guess we'll see!
As for the engraving, every one will be different and unique. Ideally, I would work with the future owners to capture their personalities...

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I'd probably be interested in one. One thing that I really like about the Kielwerth horns is the adjustable plam key risers. I have pretty long fingers and have to have riser work done on just about every horn that I've ever owned, except the Kielwerths. Just a thought....
I love your work, and it sounds like you've got a really superb horn in the works. If you need anyone to play test any of them..... :-)
Chris S

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Sounds very cool Jason. Glad to see someone else stepping up to this kind of project.

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Jason, if you could make me a sax with Yamaha ergonomics and a Conn 10M sound, with an easy altissimo I would buy it.
Engraving from you would be a major feature of such a sax but for me personally, the playability is what is primary and I would not be willing to pay much extra for engraving, no matter how exquisite. That's just me, of course, but you asked for opinions, LOL. Best of luck with your project.

Answer:
jason, if only the bore of this horn could come close to a SELMER sound in the top to mid range and then CONN from mid range on down but closer than what's available today it would be ideal. i even like the king super 20 sound with an improvement ot two. maybe a KING-CONN? a beast, the Eigth wonder of the world and promote it hanging of the empire state blding with beauty in his hand and the beast battling vintage WW1 biplanes all around and....sorry man wrong picture! would a third octave vent be a consideration so you could nail every note without stress.

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Here are some ideas for new things to try that I've seen; you might want to give these a try!
(1) A venturi at the junction of the neck and mouthpiece chamber which serves to reduce the turbulence inherent in the “cliff” that normally occurs between the end of the neck and the mouthpiece chamber. This causes problems with low end response. A venturi will also increase the velocity of the airstream, increasing the dynamic range. The venture mechanism would be made of such material that it would add additional mass to the end of the neck, thereby increasing resonance.
(2) A method of securing the neck to the body that will provide even contact, and minimize the distortion that results from the single screw method currently used.
(3) An improved left hand thumb rest which supports the entire left thumb.
(4) An improved key design, incorporating a roller, for the front F key
(5) Regulation screws for the B, A, and front F keys of the upper stack.
(6) A small “speaker key” operated by the B key mechanism which will clean up the intonation difficulties with C3.
(7) An adjusting screw to facilitate the regulation of the Bis and A.
(8) The addition of “feet” to the chromatic C and Bb key touches so that they do not flex when operated
(9) A triple ring strap hook, to facilitate players of different heights
(10) A double tone hole G key, to eliminate the “dead spot” which occurs as a result of the closed G# mechanism used on current saxophones.
(11) Regulation screws for the lower stack F, E, and D keys
(12) The re-introduction of the forked Eb key. This not only facilitates the transition between low Eb and low C (impossible at high speed on current saxophones) but would provide much needed venting at the dead spot between the D pad and the C pad. The closed Eb key on current saxophones causes intonation and voicing problems.
(13) Enlarged, roller-less key touches for the low Eb and low C keys.
(14) Double arms for the low C, low B, and low Bb key cups to give stability against side to side movement.
(15) An additional “speaker” key, operated by the low C key, to provide venting between the low C and low B tone holes, eliminating the dead spot which results from the closed low C# pad. This will eliminate the stuffy D2.
(16) Individual key guards for the low B and Bb keys, and an additional key guard for the low C# key. A double key guard, as commonly used, offers insufficient protection.
(17) A resonance ring under the bell flare for additional projection.
Martin Williams

Answer:
martin williams, a lot of what you suggest as improvements sound like the SG model horn and as hyped and curious as that particular horn was it didn't commercially fly. i believe and i could be wrong that a lot of what jason wants is a nice not too complicated attractive package with good tuning and a better price. we won't really know until there is a working prototype of the DuMars model sax but until then all ideas are cool.

Answer:
I'll just toss out my two-cents.
Jason, from your description it sounds like you are trying to recreate a King Silversonic but with improved ergonomics, intonation, manufacturing techniques, etc. The only company on the market who has anything similar to that is Yanagisawa with their silver line (I ignore Selmer's solid silver due to extreme price.) So, you've got the advantage of being basically the only instrument on the market with a solid silver bell. Thus, you have the market of people who like the King Silversonics that will most likely show interest in your instrument.
I think bringing back pearl-side keys, like the early Super 20, is also a great idea. Nobody is offering that as a standard feature. It gives the horn personality and visual appeal.
Ergonomics are a huge selling point for me on any instrument. If it's not comfortable then it's tough to play. I suggest the standard copy of the Mark VI of SA80 Ser. III keywork. It's refined, and it works well.
Engraving -- work your magic!
Keywork... keep is simple. I'm not interested in any complex intonation correcting mechanisms. If the bore is designed correctly then there won't be a whole lot of intonation problems that need correcting in the first place. I generally opt for a larger bore neck on a small bore body. The Selmer sound is the standard and I wouldn't stray too far away from it.
I'm not sure about your resonator system since I know absolutely nothing about it... but why not be the first sax line to offer Roopads standard on the horn?
I wish you the best of luck with your project, but keep in mind the lessons from the Guardala line of saxes/mouthpieces. He did far less customizing then it sounds like you are planning on attempting... but his name sold. However, he failed as a businessman... and made the mistake of licensing his name/mouthpieces to multiple companies at once.
I'm saving up to have my bari rebuilt and I want you to do the engraving on it for me. So, don't get too popular dude... need to make sure you have the time and I can still afford your talent.
Jason H.

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Hi Jason, I hope all works out well for you and your new designs. I like the big bore idea :)
I hope that Jinyin follows through to the point you are willing to. I did a similar thing w/another Taiwanese sax manufacturer several years ago. I don't want to mention the company 'cause the pres. of the company is a great guy and his heart was in the right place, and I still wish them much success. BUT, his company wouldn't follow him. Stockholders ended up voting the new sax line out. It was going to be a pro line w/a larger bore size, rolled tone holes, different neck design, abalone buttons, Berkeley of London case, etc., etc. - and materials ranged from solid copper, red brass, white bronze, and nickel silver. I even sent a red brass w/rolled tone holes & large bell prototype out to David Sanborn for him to endorse as well. I'm currently playing on a white bronze prototype, and will eventually be ordering a Rampone & Cazzani R1 alto making the white bronze alto my back-up.
These guys used Selmer springs, metal resonaters, etc... and it was a great thing. They kept sending prototypes and we faxed back and forth a ton of times, I even got to call Taiwan a few times :) Just as we were booking my tickets to fly out to their factory to meet with them, the stockholders pulled the plug on the project. Might have been the shock of a $3,500 plane ticket!!!
Again, the president of this instrument manufacturer knew what he was doing, and was going to make an AMAZING line of mass-produced top professional saxes. But in the end, the project didn't fly w/the "technical owners".
I really hope that EVERYONE at Jinyin will support your project. Sounds like a great custom horn idea. Very time consuming on your part though! The only thing I would worry about is how everyone at Jinyin and their stockholders will go about making your saxes. If they need to set up all new machines for soprano, alto, tenor - that would cost soooooooo much money. I'm guessing that they aren't handmade @ Jinyin? If they ARE handmade, you shouldn't have any problems. But if they're all stamped out by machines, I hate to say that you would be lucky to get just an alto or just a tenor line if the bore sizes are different than the S80 style bores most saxes from Taiwan seem to have. I would think that side key pearls would be easy to solder on. But all stamping of new braces, etc. would cost thousands of dollars per new key or brace, etc. I would imagine they would be willing to do some of that though. Again, it all depends what $$$ they officially get to set aside for your project(s).
I really hope you get a different outcome than mine. It almost happened for me though! So that means that it can work for you, just make sure they don't make the same mistakes of underestimating the stockholders!!!
I think you'll be fine. :)
God Bless,
Aaron ><>


Answer:
Aaron,
I thought I recently saw your name associated with a "signature series" horn from some maker. Was this the one you were talking about, or is another in the works?

Answer:
well, there's the JGerber Santee Signature bronze sax mouthpiece, but no sax that I know of that directly involves my design that's on the market or is in planning stages or anything.
At one time, there was a Taiwanese brand that was to be my signature model w/rolled tone holes, large bore, red brass or white bronze, special engraving, berkeley of london case, abalone buttons, and I can't remember the rest 'cause it's been over 2 years since the project was scrapped by the stockholders of the company. As far as I know, no saxes were made outside the handfull of prototypes, and they didn't have any special name stamped on 'em.
It was a dream :) But I'm very happy w/Rampone & Cazzani now and plan on playing 'em for a very, very long time :)
God Bless,
Aaron ><>

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Ah, yes, that's where I saw it. I was looking at Johannes pieces of art work and saw it there.

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A challenging project, but how many opportunities do we have to create something unique with the potential to make a lasting difference?
I would be interested and extend my best wishes for success and good fortune.

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so far its all wide open and some of the posts including my own would like to see a fusion of an American big bore sound,modern ergonomics, and closer harmonics as you suggest,Jason. now as was also mentioned a French(Selmer)small bore with a larger bore neck. that would be an entire other acoustic version with different variables of a modern sax that could be a sound not heard or done before? i know in print Thomas Inderbinen(switzerland) of custom trumpet fame has come up with a modern sax(tenor,alto)with the claim of both the French and American schools in one horn. SO FAR ZILCH. NADA,ZERO.maybe if an acoustical engineer/designer of saxophones would chime in with an opinion. my idea of a custom totally new sound and look would be a sax version of Mr.Dave Monette's trumpets of the future/present.

Answer:
Jason, I just checked out your website and am totally blown away!!! I truely hope things will go forward full speed ahead with your project. I'm a firm believer that just about ANYTHING can be done if one has the will to do it, and I know you'll find a way to get your own line out to the public.
God Bless,
Aaron ><>


Answer:
dear jason are you sstill planning to make a modern new king super 20 ?
it will be i hop really nice!
take care
f :line5:

Answer:
A bit of clarification, since this thread has recently been bumped: Jinyin is not a Taiwanese company. It is in the People's Republic.
I like Jason's ideas, and I hope that Jinyin can follow through. I purchased a Jinyin soprano from Jason a couple of years back, and it was nice looking, but it had serious intonation problems, and some pretty rough edges (literally). If they are able to do what Jason wants, there is some promise here, but I think that it will require substantial engineering and manufacturing progress for this to work.
I hope it works out, Jason. Keep us informed.