Question:
Where has the saxophone gone in modern popular music?
When I was a kid, the sax was cool
I mean seriously cool, In the highly influential film;) "St Elmo's Fire" Rob Lowe starred as the college hero playing the sax.
Nowadays it would be a guitar.... or a rap battle
We could trace the "cool" lineage back to the original jazzers, and rock and roll of the 50's
I guess then there was the stax soul music of the 60's
Then there was the 70's with prog rock and 20 minute solo's
In the 80s (my era) saxophones were heavily used in both good and bad ways. eg. Madness, Bowie, Wham, Spandau Ballet, Gerry Rafferty, Hazel O'Connor, Billy Joel (Phil Woods!) and just about everything.
I grew up with those soaring sax solo's in my head. Although I love jazz, I secretly like the simple "careless whisper" solo who doesnt?
My kids think the sax is pretty dorky (maybe it's just me) They dont have any sax role models anymore.
Can anyone name me a RECENT UK or US top 40 hit with a sax part in?? Where have they all gone??
You could argue that popularity is unimportant, but it worries me that our instrument of choice will only be used in niche "retro music", jazz and classical in the future
A 20 year old colleague, a decent rock guitarist at that, confused my alto with a "trumpet" and couldnt think of a single CD he owns with a sax on it.
Does anyone else care?? What can we do?

Answer:
Where has all the MUSIC gone in modern "Music"?

Answer:
We can thank the "British Invasion"/Beatles and synthesizers for driving the nails in the coffin.

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I think it will return to pop music. These things have a way of going in cycles :)

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Popular music generally sucks right now. It's no longer about songwriting. It's about production (how many bangs and clanks you can put in a track) and more importantly, it's about IMAGE. The video is as important to a song's success as the music. Seriously, take a listen to "Fergielicious". Then look at the video. What do you think sells the song?
I always do what I call the "cocktail piano" test on a song. If you can play it on cocktail piano and it sounds like something, odds are someone did some songwriting. Take a song like "Milkshake" by Quiless and try doing it as cocktail piano. Doesn't work very well. Now do that with a song like "Don't Stop Believin'" by Journey. That works very well.
The decline of the saxophone in popular music is paralleling the decline of saxophone players in the younger population. Too many kids are hooked up to Xboxs, Ipods, IMs,...everything is instant gratification. I think there are very few young people out there who appreciate the time and patience it takes to hone a craft, and playing saxophone is definitely a craft. I've been playing over 25 years now, and I'm still honing my craft.
For those youngsters that have the focus to do something like that, whether it's saxophone, piano, or even athletics, I tip my hat to you.

Answer:
Originally Posted by OnyxSax Popular music generally sucks right now. It's no longer about songwriting. It's about production (how many bangs and clanks you can put in a track) and more importantly, it's about IMAGE. The video is as important to a song's success as the music. Seriously, take a listen to "Fergielicious". Then look at the video. What do you think sells the song?
I always do what I call the "cocktail piano" test on a song. If you can play it on cocktail piano and it sounds like something, odds are someone did some songwriting. Take a song like "Milkshake" by Quiless and try doing it as cocktail piano. Doesn't work very well. Now do that with a song like "Don't Stop Believin'" by Journey. That works very well.
The decline of the saxophone in popular music is paralleling the decline of saxophone players in the younger population. Too many kids are hooked up to Xboxs, Ipods, IMs,...everything is instant gratification. I think there are very few young people out there who appreciate the time and patience it takes to hone a craft, and playing saxophone is definitely a craft. I've been playing over 25 years now, and I'm still honing my craft.
For those youngsters that have the focus to do something like that, whether it's saxophone, piano, or even athletics, I tip my hat to you.
Yea, it is so hard defending jazz to all my idiot peers who think that guys like P. Diddy (or whatever he is called now) is the greatest musician of all time. I recently asked my friends if anyone wanted to go to the Ball State Jazz Festival, and I got a bunch of blank stares and "Are you gay?"s.

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Originally Posted by jentone Where has all the MUSIC gone in modern "Music"? DIG THAT!!!

Answer:
Why has the sax disappeared? Two words--Country Music. They don't use saxes in it. Let's face it, that's about the only NEW mass marketed stuff that people over the age of 35 are listening to anymore (However, I'm in my late 30's and don't listen to the stuff--I listen to jazz :D ). (But people over that age are also listening to all kinds of old music on sattelite radio, etc.) Even Cheryl Crow and Kid Rock decided they could make more money going the country route. And since the population is skewed upwards towards the older demographic, that's the most important group to look at as far as impact.
Under that age, most youngsters (typically the group that buys music) are listening to absolute plastic-sounding teenie bopper garbage that makes mid 60s British Invasion bands like Herman's Hermits sound classic. Let's face it, the sax has no place in the average whiny, pseudo-angst-ridden Disney Channel c*** that's polluting the airwaves these days.
But getting back to what I was saying, we seem to have entered a period of nostalgia in this country in which people are listening to all different kinds of music--from the past. Yeah, it seems like the Internet with worldwide radio downloads and XM have only helped to spur this trend along. Have you noticed how every restaurant, convenience store or whatever you walk into now always has a sound system set way too loud spinning the same 70s and 80s pop tunes? It's like, that was the last time they actually knew how to write songs with decent melodies. It's funny, but I thought a lot of that stuff sucked back then (and still do), but then again, Phil Collins sounds like a genius compared to say, Britney Spears, does he not?
I remember back in the early 90s when they said the music business was in its darkest days because rock was being eclipsed by rap and Garth Brooks. Well, looking back, those big hair bands don't sound too bad compared to Jessica Simpson and that chick from American Idol.
The only time the sax even came close to making a comeback was in the mid 90s with the swing band/ska craze that swept the country for about a year or two. Remember the Squirrel Nut Zippers? But I think that was kind of an anomoly that we won't be seeing again....

Answer:
Originally Posted by jazzbluescat We can thank the "British Invasion"/Beatles and synthesizers for driving the nails in the coffin. After the Beatles came out,('64), there were tons of sax on Motown, and Stax. In the '70's we had great R&B bands like Earth, Wind, and Fire, the Ohio Players, Kool and the Gang, Average White Band, Steely Dan, and many more mentioned above.

Answer:
I just re-read my post and realize that I could've said it all with that one immortal line from the Who--"Rock is Dead" (or Rock n' Roll, in the case of the sax).
That's why we had all those great sax solos in 80s pop music. That decade was basically a celebration of American dominance in the world again and everything 50s was in again. I know because that was my era, too. And what was the biggest thing that came out of the 50s--rock and roll. I think the 80s actually might have been the beginning of that nostalgic phase, in a way, when people started looking backward instead of forward in terms of art.
It's really true when you think about it. I was in a Subway Restaurant recently and a 60-year-old woman in line in front of me was swaying to a track from the Beatles' Sgt. Pepper's on their state of the art (too loud of course) sound system. At that point I realized that most of the employees looked like they were in high school. And I happened to think, this would've been the equivalent of 60's hipsters the age of this woman in front of me listening to Bix Beiderbeck back in the height of the anti-Vietnam War movement. It's kind of depressing the artistic stasis that pop music has entered into...but as another poster pointed out, it's due in large part to the ipods, Internet, etc.--all which encourage more individuality but also contribute to a fragmentation of the culture. How many people on here are actually old enough to remember when there were only 3 or 4 TV channels? They say there's no way that anyone will ever get as many eyeballs as Carson did. Same thing with music. It's nice that we have so options but the complexity of it means that it would be nearly impossible to recreate that day in 1964 again when how many sets were tuned to the Ed Sullivan show?

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I think by and large the saxophone (and most acoustic instruments) has been sucked under the plow of electronica. Musicianship and pop music really don't exist in tandem except in rare cases like Radiohead. In some ways, I believe saxophone has semi-officially obtained the high honor of "old fogey" instrument on par with the violin or trumpet. Jazz has certainly assumed the posture of classical music replete with snobbish elitism and overly-clinical pedagogy, and the old-school notion of sax as "protest horn" or "devil's instrument" is a thing of the past. I think most younger people are indifferent to the instrument except for the rare few that fall into jazz. I was thinking about this a lot today... about how so few have successfully fused electronica and jazz authentically together. Sure there is acid jazz and such, but this is all just mindless loops sans the immediacy of improv. I think people would dig this if it were real, but what serious jazz musician is going to turn on the drum machine, and what serious DJ is going to put the tables away and hire a band?

Answer:
Skip Spratt wrote and excellent article on this topic. You can read it here on SOTW:


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Originally Posted by Swingtone .... but then again, Phil Collins sounds like a genius compared to say, Britney Spears, does he not? ... Yep....and now they look alike...
maybe her next video will feature just her bald head floating on the screen...:shock:
it worked for Phil...
Originally Posted by Swingtone ...Remember the Squirrel Nut Zippers? But I think that was kind of an anomoly that we won't be seeing again.... I SURE DO!!...
I have seen those cats live...and OMG can they swing...
About a month ago I saw Cherry-Popin-Daddy's live in Virginia...
I thought that trend would last much longer too....but I think you are right...
we probably won't see that type of music popular for a long time...:(

Answer:
Originally Posted by Swingtone Why has the sax disappeared? Two words--Country Music. They don't use saxes in it. Let's face it, that's about the only NEW mass marketed stuff that people over the age of 35 are listening to anymore (However, I'm in my late 30's and don't listen to the stuff--I listen to jazz :D ). (But people over that age are also listening to all kinds of old music on sattelite radio, etc.) Even Cheryl Crow and Kid Rock decided they could make more money going the country route. And since the population is skewed upwards towards the older demographic, that's the most important group to look at as far as impact.
Under that age, most youngsters (typically the group that buys music) are listening to absolute plastic-sounding teenie bopper garbage that makes mid 60s British Invasion bands like Herman's Hermits sound classic. Let's face it, the sax has no place in the average whiny, pseudo-angst-ridden Disney Channel c*** that's polluting the airwaves these days.
But getting back to what I was saying, we seem to have entered a period of nostalgia in this country in which people are listening to all different kinds of music--from the past. Yeah, it seems like the Internet with worldwide radio downloads and XM have only helped to spur this trend along. Have you noticed how every restaurant, convenience store or whatever you walk into now always has a sound system set way too loud spinning the same 70s and 80s pop tunes? It's like, that was the last time they actually knew how to write songs with decent melodies. It's funny, but I thought a lot of that stuff sucked back then (and still do), but then again, Phil Collins sounds like a genius compared to say, Britney Spears, does he not?
I remember back in the early 90s when they said the music business was in its darkest days because rock was being eclipsed by rap and Garth Brooks. Well, looking back, those big hair bands don't sound too bad compared to Jessica Simpson and that chick from American Idol.
The only time the sax even came close to making a comeback was in the mid 90s with the swing band/ska craze that swept the country for about a year or two. Remember the Squirrel Nut Zippers? But I think that was kind of an anomoly that we won't be seeing again.... Remember, when you play a Country song backwards, the guy gets his truck back, his girlfriend back and his dog back. Todays Rap and Hip Hop is just Audio Pornagraphy IMHO.

Answer:
Sometimes I make it a point to try and tune in to hear if there is any sax on the pop airwaves. It's definitely going underground. Jay Z has a tune with some sax loops and horn sections. Beyonce has a band with several saxes in it (and a drummer from around here). But, again, it's mainly just loops and samples. A lot of the female singers have canned horns but that's about it. The ultimate problem, for me, is that the "Live" is no longer in "Live Music". After the Superbowl half time show with Prince (who was obviously perfoming live and in the rain and wind) I noticed a lot of musicians and avid fans we very positive about his performance and yet a lot of the general public was dissapointed by "cracked notes and slow guitar licks". It was live and amazing! I blame the lack of funding for musical education and the declining interest in what it's actuallu like to actually play a real instrument and not just push a button.

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On a positive note, the sound of a sax, when played well (!), is still as enticing as it ever was. And of all the instruments, the sax is one of the most difficult (impossible actually) to "synthesize" or duplicate electronically. So I think it will always be around and will be appreciated at least in a live setting. One downside to the fact that the sax is not heard often enough these days is when someone gets on stage who can't play in tune, or has a poor tone, or both, the audience will go away with the perception that a saxophone is a terrible instrument. So those of us who play the horn have some responsibility. We need to work hard to produce a good sound and make sure we do justice to this great instrument. I can guarantee you that a majority of the audience will react favorably when they hear a sax played well, assuming the music itself is not too far out.
As to the state of pop culture, especially in the USA these days, I'll just keep my mouth shut.

Answer:
I hate to say it but sax players just aren't as cool anymore. I get all my young students to listen to a wide variety of sax stuff, old and modern, jazz, funk, blues, pop, rock. Overwhelmingly, the kids like the tunes. The instrument itself, and the sound of the sax, are still poular, as JL pointed out.
It's sax players that aren't seen as cool. As one of my kids put it, "the sax is cool, except that so many boring old people try to play it."
When I finished laughing, I thought about it, and the kid has a point. The sax is synonymous with Jazz and even though the kids like Jazz, and even want to play it, they perhaps unconsciously, recognise Jazz for what it is, an homage to a past era.

Answer:
A previous thread discussed this at some length.
Although it's true that the sax no longer enjoys the prominence in today's Top Twenty charts that it did in the 1940's-60's, it has far from disappeared, especially in the more innovative hip-hop and rap recordings from artists like K-OS, who has made a point of using the sax on a number of recordings including his hit "Crabbuckit"
I fundamentally disagree that rap and hip-hop are just "audio pornography". It certainly is true that the "gangsta" marketing angle has been done to death and that even teenagers have had enough as evidenced by the significant drop in sales in the past year.
However, from a production perspective, music producers in these areas have helped to revolutionize studio sound and production. But why just take my word for it? Check out David Howard's great book, "Sonic Alchemy- Visionary Music Producers and Their Maverick Recordings".
This fascinating book reviews not only the careers and studio techniques of past greats like George Martin, Phil Spector, Jimmy Miller, Glyns Johns, Brian Eno, King Tubby, Lee Parry, and many more, but also today's important innovators like Dr. Dre and Arthur Baker, and how they, in turn, have been influenced by producers of the past, especially David Axelrod.


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Christina Augulria just came out with her new album and uses not only sax but brass as well. Thats recent and in the TOP 40.:)
Plus she is sooooooo HOT:twisted:

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I think Smooth Jazz is responsible for the present unpopularity of the saxophone...:D