Question:
Mpc. trials, perception of sound
Hello,
I have been in the process of checking out a bunch of different mouthpieces, and yesterday I recorded three to see if my perception of them was the same as what is being heard out front. Anyhow, I was first surprised at how similar the sounded--but after listening with fresh ears I do hear differences. But I am curious what others think about the perceived difference versus the playabilty factor. I recorded a Ponzol traditiional 110, this metal link I am trying out, and an RPC 120 rollover piece. AT the time, the Ponzol was playing the easiest followed by the RPC and then the Link. Recorded, the Ponzol was alright, even, but a little bland sound and dark. THe RPC sounded quite spread out although a little livlier than the Ponzol, but not as even. THe Link, which was hardest to play--either because I am not used to it or have not found good reeds for it yet--sounded the best--most centered and an interesting color and graininess. But, I know from playing them the RPC is really the most flexible and I can play that thing the loudest. So is that perception of volume at the sacrifice of a core sound, and would the other two pieces actually have a bigger, if not louder sound? It sure seems like it, but I can't get those two to reconcile (ie, volume and core/bigness of sound) Yesterday I wasn't so sure about the Link-it just seemed too hard to play, but today after listening to them I would like to hang in there and get the Link to work...

Answer:
Ving: I think recording the results and listening to what the audience may hear is a good practice. It should give you a better perspective about how the equipment really sounds.
I've had similar personal conflicts when I tried a variety of mouthpieces - one did this, another did that, etc. After much effort I'd settle on one over the others.
THEN, I'd take the one I picked as being the best and tried it in a public performance, in the group with whom I play. All of my private work went out the window when I heard my favorite being played live.
True, one must go through all the drills in private, but the real test is how the equipment works when it counts. I would delay any final decisions until I had a chance to play the chosen mouthpiece in a playing environment.
Another thing, rested chops make a huge difference in assessing mouthpieces, as do the reeds one uses. I've had different results after resting a day and then revisiting the same pieces, with different reeds. DAVE

Answer:
Ving - there was some pretty good advice on: Mouthpieces > Tenor mpc >Stick it out with my Link or revert to my Ponzol?
that you might want to take a look at.

Answer:
I've been having exactly the same 'problem'
My perception is significantly different from what others seem to hear - or at least the way they express the sound. What makes it worse is that there is an effect of microphone positioning, and more particularly the reed, and slightly softer/harder really changes things a lot.
I put up some mpc trials of Lawton/RPC/Berg 130/Link 8* on the website address in my signature, as well as the effect of mic placement.

Answer:
I think that the differences in how it feels to play the mouthpiece is what we as players notice most. To the listener there will not be that much difference. Of course, there could be a huge difference when comparing two vastly different pieces like a Super Gonz II and a Link Tone Edge.
I could record my mouthpiece trials, but I'm lazy. What I do is play into a wall, door or window. If I like the way the piece feels, blows, and sounds, then I walk around the house listening to the way it sounds and responds as the room accoustics change.
Ving, you seem to have a personal leaning toward the RPC. You might benefit from getting hold of 2-3 RPC's at the same time. So you could compare just the RPC pieces. Getting RPC's at same time will not be as easy, but if that's what you believe will work best for you, then that's what you should do.

Answer:
I've noticed a difference between a perceived playabilty vs a recorded sound. My Ponzol M1 sounds very nice to my ears from behind the horn. When I recorded myself on it with several clips it sounded bland compared to a link which I didn't like the sound when I first played it.
I do believe that the more freeblowing a piece is the better the chance a player may perceive a "nicer" tone. Not necessarily true when you listen back to a recording of the same sound.
I almost always favor a mouthpiece that is more free blowing on the first trial. On tape the more resistant set ups tend to produce a more favorable tone.
I think If I were going to sell mouthpieces to make money I would make a very freeblowing one because I think it tricks the player into thinking it's a nicer tone.

Answer:
I think that I have posted elsewhere, but the biggest boon to understanding 'my sound' was getting a high quality large diaphragm condenser and some studio headphones with closed cups and really good isolation. Setting this up in different venues and listening to myself play. Realtime feedback really beats recordings and the quality of the microphone is important. I have borrowed a couple different high end stereo mics (crossed pairs like the Rode or the AT822/825) and this takes it to the next dimension. Doing this outdoors is really interesting. This is how I 'listen' to new mouthpieces...the mic is always setup in my practice space, and while it is really too small a space, now that I am calibrated it gives me an excellent A/B comparison.

Answer:
Originally Posted by Dave Dolson True, one must go through all the drills in private, but the real test is how the equipment works when it counts. I would delay any final decisions until I had a chance to play the chosen mouthpiece in a playing environment. DAVE
I'm with Dave on this particular point. I've weeded out some mpcs on the gig that I though were great in my living room. Obviously the tone quality is important, but I really like a mpc that responds well and is versatile enough to work on the job in a variety of conditions. If the mpc plays easily and responds well in all registers, then I'll play better. It's true that different mpcs will affect the tone quality, but the tone quality has a lot to do with the player, as well.
Regarding strong core/projection vs more spread sound, I'm dealing with that issue on my two Buescher tenors. The series 1 'Crat has great core & projection, while the 156 'Crat is more free-blowing with a spread sound. I think the strong core on the series 1 balances well with an RPC mpc, which is rather free-blowing. Maybe the best of both worlds!

Answer:
THanks for the comments! Yes, Sinkdrain I agree about the free blowing pieces tricking you into thinking they are a better tone--thats the case with the RPC. Lots of volume, not as much core. I have used all three in gig or rehearsal situations and the Ponzol and RPC are both what I would say are "useable". I tried the Link today in a rehearsal also and its going back--didn't work for me. Also compared it to a stock Link in a similar facing and found it not a big enough difference to go with it. Also, I have had a bunch of RPC's--in fact at one time I had 5 for tenor (!) I know, crazy. Anyhow, I have thinnned out a few of those as they all had a similar tendency to me. Right now I am just going to play the Ponzol as I think it has the most potential, but the RPC is a nice go to mouthpiece. Just doesn't quite have enough core though i think...

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It is possible to have a free blowing mouthpiece with a better tone than a resistant mouthpiece. I think it is more fun to play too. But a lot of guys like a set-up that makes them work hard.

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Mojo--I think i'm somewhere in the middle. I am kind of rethinking my philosophy a little bit--I have gone back and approached my RPC with the similar attitude I did with the Link and kind of rediscovered the flexibilty of those--in design, there shouldn't be a reason to me not to be able to get many different colors from those as well (I am talking rollover models). Anyhow, its good to be open to trying different things in terms of embouchure/mouthpiece placement etc. From a realistic standpoint, I am not playing 8 hours a day so I can't really afford the time to work up chops just to be able to play a hard to play piece. The trade off perhaps isn't as great as I initally thought...

Answer:
Ving,I don't know if you have, already, but try a Lamberson, sometime.
and L or an SB might do the trick.
Very reed friendly w/ responsive facings that allow you to shape the sound
more,and, you can, then, tailor the reed to get a bit less or more vibrancy.
The facing is VERY important, and Fred has this aspect down, pat.
With the L model, for example, depending on the reed I could get full and lush
or edgy(with proper breath support/oral cavity shaping) .
The SB[small baffle] adds a little extra punch that is really nice, also and not
like your typicl full sized step baffle, so you still have the chamber adding to
most of the sound, and the small baffle there if you want to push hard; making
for a really versatile mpc. if you were playing different jobs/styles.
Great stuff !8-)

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Maybe I will go back and check out a Lamberson in hard rubber--the one I had briefly was the white delrin and I didn't care for the material...

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shmuelyosef,
I'm interested in your post but need clarification.
If you are playing while listening to yourself through closed 'phones
how can you eliminate the "felt sound" that bedevils the subject
of wind players perceiving their tone?
Do you play outdoors with the mics & 'phones? By the way I
am not taking you to task here, I'd like to experience this myself.
rabbit

Answer:
Rabbit,
I was wondering the same thing upon reading the post last night. I actually had a teacher who had me put my hands on his head and jaws while he played scales to illustrate this to me...I was amazed at how much his cheek bones were vibrating as he played.

Answer:
Lately, I have noticed that there seems to be a noticable difference between what I hear on my side of the horn, and what gets heard by someone on the other side of the horn. I have made feeble atempts to record myself. It seems that when I think I'm getting a big, full vibrant sound with good center/focus, the recording seems like I'm failry dark. If I get a brighter, buzzy sound, almost like the reed is too soft, then the recording sounds more like the open vibrant full sound I heard before. It's as if everything seems brighter or buzzier from my side of the horn. Once, when I was getting a pretty reedy sound, I was convinced that my reed was too soft. But a recording and the opinion of a trusted/respected fellow sax player proved different.
shmeulyosef, can you be more specific about how you do this? I would like to try this. What are you running the mic into or headphones out of?