Question:
Reface NY Meyer 5M?
I have NY Meyer 5m alto mouthpiece I bought thirty years ago. I haven't touched it for years because I prefer mouthpieces opening to 0.85. Do you think it would be worthwile to have it opened to 0.85 and to whom would you send it to be worked on?

Answer:
What other pieces do you play that are .085"? Do they have baffles in them? Have they been hand faced?
What I'm getting at is if they are similar to what you play on, but not hand faced, you will most likely be quite pleased with the refaced Meyer. If they are different than the Meyer, you still could be pleased with the reface but the Meyer might need some baffle to get to the sound you want.
The 3 most popular refacers among sax playing web surfers are Jon Van Wie, Theo Wanne and Paul "Doc" Tenney. These guys do refacing pretty much full time and are backed up for weeks, if not months. They must be doing something right. Regionally, there are refacers that service big city areas that are less well known on the web.
If you want to take a chance on a relatively new guy, pick me! I'm only doing this part time until I get fired from my day gig. About 90% of my clients are thrilled with my work. The others I am still tweeking. I'm tied up for 2 weeks now, but normally my turnaround time is less than 2 weeks.


Answer:
Most of the time, I use a RPC (Coelho) 0.85 mouthpiece, sometimes a JodyJazz #8, occasionally a Sugal Classic in copper.
Some years ago, I switched to the Coelho because it has more projection than the Meyer.

Answer:
Frankly, if you are happy with the RPC sound, it will be tough to beat it.
The larger tip opening Vandorens are a good competitor, in my opinion.
I have not seen any altos, but his tenors and baris I've seen all have concave sidewalls with a good baffle to match whatever facing is on it. They are among the biggest sounding dark mouthpieces out there.
The Meyer has straight side wall which give it a baseline projection and "pop" above curved side walls, but RPC's baffle work more than makes up the difference.

Answer:
One point nobody has brought up this the value of New York Meyers. They're selling for big bucks these days and there's the chance a refaced one will not sell for top dollar. That may or may not be important to you. An alternative could be sell the NY Meyer, buy a new one, have it refaced and enjoy the profit.

Answer:
Hi, Toni. The 5M is a popular tip opening. What I'm getting at is that you'll lose a lot of value by having the piece refaced. Most people that are willing to pay several hundred dollars for an untried vintage Meyer are banking on the early Meyer's consistency, not on the craftmanship of a refacer. With hopefully no offence to Mojo or any other refacer (and I used to be one), my recommendation for you is to sell your 5M on eBay and then start bidding on NY Meyer 7M's if the Meyer is the sound (but not the tip) you want.
If you're not familiar with all the different models of Meyers made in NY, then you should go do some reading at mouthpieceheaven.com to know what you're selling and what you'll be looking to buy.

Answer:
yes i think joe has a good idea. there is a big market for 5ms original but a 7 thats been refaced is a gamble.it would devalue the piece .but if you liked the reface money doesnt matter . im sure all these guys do great work but what the heck. keep it original and you can trade if for just about any piece that you like better .bar none and probably pocket 100s as well.

Answer:
I'm not soliciting for business but am interested to know what sort of "consistency" Joe refers to regarding the NY Meyer alto mpcs. I've seen dozens, both Meyer Bros and "NY USA" models and they're as inconsistentent as the vintage Brilharts from the same era! Don't count on any sort of legendary "consistency" regarding tip openings or facing curves on ANY vintage mpc brand or model. It doesn't exist! The only "consistency" on these mpcs is the absurdly high prices they seem to command from "Gotta-have-it" types looking for "Chops In A Box"!

Answer:
I saw an auction on ebay this weekend for a "Vintage" Meyer, and
it was up to $440, and still going!!!! The piece's side rails were
crumbling, but the seller said that shouldn't be a concern<GRIN>!
Frank

Answer:
I personally have a NY Meyer that had been refaced...it was a 9M but it was taken down to a 7M and refaced by Bob Ackerman...I bought it on eBay for REALLY cheap...I think it was like $100 or some ridiculous price. It does lower the value, although, IMHO, it plays better than ANY New York Meyer I've ever played, and better than any alto mouthpiece I've ever played period. I don't see why people don't send their pieces off to be worked on...they all should be! They play SO MUCH BETTER when they are worked on...of course, the work has to be really good in order for the mouthpiece to play well (my little disclaimer 8) )
Andrew

Answer:
Doc's right, of course, no mouthpieces are really very consistent. I didn't say the Meyers were, just that they had a reputation as such. The comparison I was making was rather a buyer would rather have a stock Meyer or one that has been refaced by someone they don't know. Prices have shown that there's a lot more confidence in stock pieces.
As to the consistency of early Meyers, I would refer to the Morgan article on Meyers where the Meyer literature itself points to the need and their efforts to be accurate to 1/10,000th's of an inch. Were they? No. But they are a lot better than most.
I knew my comments could possibly get some refacers upset. I am just leary of any refaced pieces without knowing the person and exactly what was done. Here's why.
Many mouthpieces do have a deficiency in design or production in the tip or baffle right behind the tip. However, if there's work done in that area and it isn't simply to correct a problem, then the response and resistance of the mouthpiece will be off. This doesn't seem to bother some players but, to someone that plays by feel like me, it's very annoying.
I've played several examples from 4 different well known and respected refacers and every one that involved any major tip and associated baffle adjustments didn't feel right. Most were fine playing pieces with a nice sound, they just didn't have the evenness of resistance through all registers or the same sound across all dynamic ranges like a piece done properly at the factory. I've come to the conclusion that it's almost impossible by hand to recut the tip and baffle and get it anywhere close to the original specs. The tip and transition to baffle area is really tough to duplicate with the tools that the refacers I know use. In all fairness, I haven't seen Doc's, JVW's, or Theo's work, at least that I know of. Perhaps they have figured this out.
Now, I know Doc and JVW are aware of the problem. JVW has stated on the old SOTWsite that he likes to keep a piece as original as possible. Doc has stated he likes to open up a piece by recutting the table rather then the tip. This tells me two things 1) He wants to keep the original tip rail and baffle intact if at all possible 2) He knows what he's doing.
Doc, I don't think many people buy a vintage Meyer looking for chops in a box. Most everyone's aware that these are pieces, unlike many of the modern high baffle pieces, where the player has to do all the work to produce a good sound. I agree, the prices are ridiculous. Problem is, though, that there's just not another piece that will get exactly that NY Meyer sound. There are lots of pieces that get fantastic sounds and play great, they just don't have exactly "the" sound or feel. Granted, many of these overpriced Meyers don't have that sound or feel, either (I still find it hard to believe anyone would pay big bucks for a piece they haven't tried). But, prices will stay high until someone reproduces vintage Meyers.

Answer:
Most of the factory pieces I've seen vary so much from the tip chart or from each other within the same model, that it is hard to believe there is a factory spec. Refacers try to reverse engineer what the spec probably was and fix the defects and/or implement their own strategy into a piece.
A lot of what goes into the design of a factory made piece is the consderation of what is easy to manufacture. They have to get enough right that most of them play decent. Nearly all factory made mouthpiece shapes can be made better or improved using hand tools. Sure, you can hack them up pretty good with hand tools too.
Joe, what mouthpieces have you tried that you though were best as you got them from the factory?

Answer:
Morgan mouthpieces play really well right out of the box. As do Runyon mouthpieces.

Answer:
Mojo, I've collected a couple of dozen pieces over the years that played great for me straight from the factory. I've tried probably two thousand pieces to pick these. Many brands are wildly eratic while some are pretty consistent. I would have to say that most Lakeys play and sound very similar. Other consistent brands include Guardalas, Yanagisawas and Lawtons. However, Bergs, Links, new Meyers, Selmers, etc... are all over the place. No two are alike and most have major flaws. Finding a great mouthpiece among these brands can be harder than finding a great horn. Even brands that are hand finished such as Bari are very inconsistent.
Funny thing, though. Many of the great playing factory pieces I"ve collected have crooked facings, uneven tips rails, etc... I never touched them because they sounded fantastic and I learned a long time ago, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I believe even JVW acknowledged this on the old SOTW site when he said to never have your number 1 piece worked on. These are all my number one pieces and I've used them as a base for how other pieces should play. When facings have been crooked, I've averaged the two numbers. These average facings have worked incredibly well on other pieces I've refaced.
Most people don't realize that, when facing, there are always balances you're dealing with. There are many ways to make a piece brighter and more resistant, brighter and more free blowing, darker and more resistant, or darker and more free blowing. Resistance from the facing will produce a different feel and slightly different sound than resistance from the tip or baffle. That's where the art of playing meets refacing, being able to strike the right balance between all the variables. I could never have refaced a piece without constantly playing it to make sure everything was properly balanced, while I've known refacers that would do a piece and send it out without ever blowing it.
Feel was why I always tried to keep the tip rail and baffle right behind it original. I've never seen a refacer that could completely recut the area behind the tip and reproduce the same feel and resistance as a factory piece so I always treated that area very carefully. Now, there are many pieces that will play better with a thinner tip rail or blow less stuffy and sound better with a little material taken out behind the tip and I didn't hesitate to do that. Of course a crooked tip rail or baffle needs to be evened out.
Gosh, I almost miss refacing. I think I really gave it up because I was too much of a perfectionist. It was always such a let down if I couldn't get a piece to sound and feel exactly the way I wanted. I have refaced many of my students mouthpieces through the years, though, and it seems to have given them an edge over the competition.

Answer:
Thanks for the info/story. Refacing can be a huge time sink. Getting good results is the real pay off, not money. But I need to hire someone to do the chores around the house I'm not getting to due to refacing.