Question:
Why are virtually all films the same when it comes to their unimaginative use of surround sound. Nowadays with DTS/DD etc. crystal clear dialogue or effects could be placed virtually anywhere in the room/auditorium. However all I ever seem to get on my rear speakers are the same old surround cliches.
1) Helicopters
2) Rain / Thunder/Wind
3) Explosions
4) Breaking glass
5) Car Horns
6) Jets flying overhead
7) Crowd noise
8) Bullets ricocheting
There is so much scope for things to be better than this. Whenever a film breaks out of this rut and does something different it makes me realise what we are missing. A couple I noticed recently are;
The Others - Kid's footsteps run from rears to front seemingly passing through viewers body.
Kung Pow Enter the Fist - The whispering over the title credits like there is someone sat in the theatre behind you.
Comedy in particular could use it to great advantage, things happening off camera - somebody making sly wisecracks behind the viewer etc etc.
Maybe I'm alone here in thinking that all the money I spent on surround equipment is going unused in most films.
I just get fed up that the surround equipment standards keep improving (e.g. EX) by incorporating more and more speaker positions when hardly any films use the current setups to their maximum potential.
Anyone else fed up with the same old cliche surround sound effects?
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Would sitting with your back to the screen help your predicament.:confused:
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Get the AB DVD of Suspiria
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Originally posted by Shingster
Get the AB DVD of Suspiria Seconded.
I general, animation seems to be the most annovative medium for surround sound audio, no doubt because everything has to be created from scratch. Try out the DTS tracks on Atlantis: The Lost Empire, Monsters, Inc. and Akira.
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I agree with the comment about animation soundtracks they really are the best for effects - especially for using the sub :) . Haven't seen Suspiria and will definately check it out from your strong recommendations.
I think that live action could learn a lot from animation. After all most live action sound effects are artificially dubbed in after with foley artists etc - I just think that they have failed to keep up with the technology and improve the sound in the same way that special effects technology has advanced over the same period.
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T2- Has some nice rear efects. As does Blade 2.
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A lot of surround effects are supposed to be "subtle". It's probably the case that there's a lot more surround than you realise, just that you notice the big explosions, helicopters, etc (as you would in real life).
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Beginning of 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail' has a nice little bit.
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Maybe your setup is poor. You do have to tweak it to get it "just" right
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I'm not sure you're getting me.
I know that most films are designed with subtle surround effects and generally thats fine and dandy (for those films). All I'm asking is that won't someone try something other than subtle or helecopters flying overhead. I am asking for something new, inventive, clever, surprising.
I'm not asking for every film to have characters talk their dialogue from over your left shoulder rather than the centre speaker - but wouldn't it be nice if just one tried it out.
An example scene:
Strange moving object seen for second in distance then screen goes black
Rear Left "Damn my torch has gone out, what was that"?
Rear Right "Don't know"
Rear left "I'm going to have a look"
Sound of footsteps walk from rear left to front left
Front left "Its weird - come and have a look"
Rear right walking to rear left "No way man"
Sub Woofer: Starts to rumble louder and louder
etc etc.
See what I mean - throw the dialogue around a bit - liven things up - scare me. Don't just use it for effects.
Most films with 5.1/DTS are perfectly watchable if you unplug the rear speakers - I want a film where surround sound is vital to understand whats going on. Just for a change.
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Solid I am fully with you on this
The use of the sound stage is just not used enough for my liking
The only two films that I can think of that use the rear to do anything other than spot effects are Strange Days and X-Men - both movies have great dialouge scenes which use the rears
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Tron and 25th Hour :)
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Originally posted by Panavision
25th Hour :)
Seconded, i had to rewind the DVD just to hear the scratching again. Brilliant !!
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Originally posted by Solidstate
An example scene:
Strange moving object seen for second in distance then screen goes black
Rear Left "Damn my torch has gone out, what was that"?
Rear Right "Don't know"
Rear left "I'm going to have a look"
Sound of footsteps walk from rear left to front left
Front left "Its weird - come and have a look"
Rear right walking to rear left "No way man"
Sub Woofer: Starts to rumble louder and louder
etc etc. Is that from an actual movie?, cause that sounds way cool :thumbs:
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Hollow man has effects like that, as does Requiem for a Dream and thats just off the top of my head.
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The two Queen DVD-As are very good for full use of surround speakers, but they're not films of course :D. Effective though having vocals pop-out of just a particular rear speaker on occasion. More "multi-channel" than surround really.
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yes Requiem For A Dream!!! probably one of the best uses of surround sound in a film, especially for a low budget non-action type film. Fincher movies also get my vote. :thumbs:
but i know exactly where you're coming from mate, there are so many times when i feel they are being a bit lazy, and to me sound is an extremely important aspect to film, and to ignore it is very lazy IMO! Directors need to take care over every aspect, though maybe it has more to do with the sound designer??
but i must say most of the better sounding movies, bar the obvious Spielberg, Zemeckis etc..movies, are ones directed by younger people, so in theory it will get better... :)
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solid watch Stir Of Echoes, you'll love the sound in that mate!! :D
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on the commentary for requiem for a dream aronofsky says how much he loved the little joystick for directing the sound effects around the speakers, he claims it must have added 2 days to post production, just of him arsing about with it :lol:
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Solidstate - I know what you mean, surround effects are always appreciated but I really like it when the filmmakers use the surrounds creatively, especially with the dialog. With normal surround effects such as guns, explosions, rear to front moving effects, you enjoy the surround sound while keeping your eyes glued to the screen. However, I was watching 'Spiderman' on my new surround setup and the scene where Norman Osbourne was talking to himself in the mirror, I found my head was turning around the room as I could hear the Green Goblins disemboweled voice bouncing/moving around all the speakers :eek:
:thumbs:
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Signs had some nice surround usage in places, lots of scurrying between speakers.
Also the Cowboy bebop: Perfect sessions had some very nice placement at times. (In one eppy there's a scene where the "camera" pans around circularly while people are talking & the dialogue likewise pans across all the speakers. It's very nicely done.)
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Desperado
Many fantastic effects, but one notable one at the start where he's walking behind you, from right to left :eek:
Strange Days
Fantastic rear vocals throughout that really add a sense of 'seeing through their eyes' :eek:
Donnie Darko
I won't spoil it :D
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One of the most effective uses I've heard is the first attack in
An American Werewolf in London
The wolf circles the two stars and you can here howling/ "what was that" etc in different speakers. Very similar to the example you used and it puts you right in the middle of the action.
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have to agree that filmakers could do so much more with the soundstage, and the technolgy is just crying out for people to push its boundaries and get inventive.............
as someone has said animation tends to led the field in that direction.........................
a film that i recall making good use of the surround sound was The Devils Backbone, i remember listening to it and thinking how nice it was for a film that was not all about guns & car chases to make such use of the soundscape
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Superman - Lex's voice in the surrounds:)
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Metropolis is one of the best animation examples..superb DTS. Especially when they are going up the escalator and voices are bouncing around you.
Das Boot superb immersive DD 5.1, creaks and drips.
Pitch Black, nice 'sonar' sound effect takes in the rears and fonts.
X-Men..I like the bit Sabretooth roars in the rear left speaker.
Back to the Future: Nice bit when Marty returns to 1985, you hear the car crash behind you.
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X Men - prof. Xavier in Wolverine's head.
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Originally posted by Robby
Seconded, i had to rewind the DVD just to hear the scratching again. Brilliant !!
The bit where Norton slags off New Yorkers is very good. This had me turning around in the cinema and had the same effect at home. :thumbs:
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Originally posted by Gethinnadin
The bit where Norton slags off New Yorkers is very good.
Oh Yeah, i forgot about that bit. Very impressive when you consider the film is nothing more than a drama.
:thumbs: Spike and the Sound Designers.
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Originally posted by KRW
Hollow man has effects like that, as does Requiem for a Dream and thats just off the top of my head.
Lat time I watched that I wasn't feeling too good and actually had to go vomit when the dialogue starting spinning round the room. It was ace! :thumbs: ;)
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Where is the "scratching" in 25th hour?
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As Squirrel God says, some of the effects in Desperado are magnificent. I think the sequence he means is when Antonio Banderas is singing on the bar near the beginning of the movie and his nemesis from 'El Mariachi' appears. You hear the guy clapping in the rear speakers and then it moves around to the front, and it's one of the most effective pieces of sound design I've ever heard.
I do agree with Solidstate that rear-channel sound design is generally very uninventive when it comes to things like dialogue and subtle effects. I watched Saving Private Ryan in dts earlier today, and while the power of the track is undeniable the rear speakers are given standard surround duties, ie planes and bullet ricochets, with nothing that makes you actually turn your head in disbelief (like the Desperado bit mentioned above).
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Walter Murch is worth quoting here, as he's one of the greatest sound designers who ever worked in Hollywood. (He's also an editor and directed <i>Return to Oz</i>.) He's complained that too many Hollywood movies just use their soundtracks to make a big, overly-loud sound, designed simply to pummel the audience in their seats. Too often it's designed on the principle "If you see it, you hear it" - using <i>Titanic</i> as an example. (I'm not sure of the source of the quote - I think it's from the interview book he did with Michael Ondaatje.)
<i>The Conversation</i> (1974) has to count as one of the most groundbreaking soundtracks in history - it pushed mono optical sound to its limits. (Murch remixed it into Dolby Digital 5.1 for the DVD release.) Another Murch showcase is either version of <i>Apocalypse Now</i>.
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Originally posted by Doorman80
Where is the "scratching" in 25th hour?
Went and listened to it again earlier (along with the pretty interesing Spike lee doc on the disc).
Anyway.......Chapter 13 i believe, when Mary goes to the toilet in the club and PSH's character follows her up the stairs.
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I am glad that a lot of people seem to feel the same way.

I noticed the bits in Stir of Echoes, Signs and BTTF too. Moments like those are what made me realise what could/should be done with the sound stage (even on remixes like BTTF).
You have peaked my interest on The 25 Hour & the others mentioned and I will definately look out for these.
Maybe most of the sound designers are stuck in the past and still have Pro-logic or Stereo in mind when they mix the soundtrack.
After all Pro- logic could only handle simple effects - anything more detailed - like dialogue was a complete no no.
Anyway I must say thanks for all your suggestions - and any others are appreciated :)
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Let us know what you think of 25th Hour when/if you see it.
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Just watched the scatching scene & was very impressed:thumbs:
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I agree fully and if someone like Orson Welles were alive and in his prime now, think of what he might come up with.
I 2nd "the others" as the sound design had me jumping before anything had happened on the screen.
:) cool topic. Any others? (no pun intended...)
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"Being John Malkovich"
JMs voice when John Cusack is inside his head :)
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I agree in principal totally, however a concession has to be made to the stereo and mono mix down unfortunately which means sound that is mixed to the rear may be indistinct on a monaural set-up.
The same can be said about widescreen, where framing has to take into account 4:3 cut-out. Good examples of someone completely disregarding this is Michael Mann (See LOFTM and Heat.)
But it's a completely valid point.
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However, a separate 2.0 track can always be provided, which is reasonably common on R1 regardless, less common on R2 where it is usually stripped out in favour of 2.0 in another language.
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The Others features a superb bit, where Nicole Kidman ***** herself when hearing noises coming from around the house.
And I did too.... cos I thought they were in MY house.
Dog Soldiers good bit where the heros are trapped in a LandRover & a beast jumps on top of it & starts tearing the roof off.
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*
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double post...
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There's a great surround sound joke in Josie and the Pussycats where Tara Reid is running around the house and her voice suddenly comes out of the rear right speaker.
I agree about The Others too - it really does sound as though the noises are coming from directly above you. Amazing. Who needs Dolby Overhead sound?
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Another good one is in Snatch.
The bit where they in the pawn shop where "Ghost Town" is playing in the background, as if it is coming from another room somewhere.
Whenever I play that, it sounds exactly like music coming from the flat below, it's great!
A vote for Donnie Darko and Stir Of Echoes here too :thumbs:
Idle Hands - The bit where he swings a cat round his head and it goes flying around the speakers! :lol:
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Another call for The Devil's backbone, at one point you hear footsteps running behind you between the rear speakers. Very chilling. :thumbs:
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Originally posted by raptor
Dog Soldiers good bit where the heros are trapped in a LandRover & a beast jumps on top of it & starts tearing the roof off.
one of my favourite surround sound moments, it sounds like you are actually in the landrover with them!!
I like soundtracks (of modern or remixed films of course) that make use of discrete rear effects, a soundtrack that runs its entire length simply going for subtle atmospherics simply isn't doing its job in my book. But that said the reason vocals aren't often steered through the rear channels is because it does make you turn around and look away from the screen, its distracting and directors don't like that.
There have been several films mentioned on this thread that I may have to buy now on the strength of their soundtracks. The scratching bit in 25th Hour had me grinning like a crazy man!!
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I'll add Reign of Fire to the list, I watched this last night and rears never stop working throughout the film, great soundtrack. The rental disc even has a DTS track!!
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just found a great link for sound effect cliches
http://www.filmsound.org/cliche/
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8 Mile - rears used when Eminem has his headphones on.
The Princess and the Warrior (excellent German film) - most innovative and skilful use of surrounds ever, showing you briefly what it is like to be a blind person.